All People Welcome Gay or
Str8
Home
Old Home
Gay is not sin
Accept Jesus
and
Get Baptized
in the Holy Spirit
Gays For Jesus
|
Episode: 1351
Length: 28 min.
|
Sodom and Gomorrah
Genesis Chapter 19
Attempted Gang Rape and Murder?
Gang rape killing the victim is just not gay behavior
Original Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:21:25 EDT Updated Saturday, December 18, 2004
Genesis Chapter
19
Does not describe gays at all
Funny how so many still think
What is the Bible story per the verses?
Accusation verse to condemn gays:
Gen 19:4 But
before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of
Every boy, every grandpa, every man, and ALL the People.
These are the ones that came to
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you,
brethren, do not so wickedly. (KJV)
wickedly = 7489
ra` a` (raw-ah'); a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by
breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad
(physically, socially or morally): KJV-- afflict, associate selves [by mistake
for 7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer,
entreat, man), showself friendly [by mistake for
7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behaveself, deal) ill, X
indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly),
be (deal, do) worse.
As is the definition these people did not plan a fun time in sex with the two
angels, it is very clear in
God (Jesus) spoke with Abraham concerning destroying
Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be
angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found
there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's
sake. (KJV)
We know this story, but it is almost
never brought up when discussing gays being destroyed in
The true sins of
Ezek 16:49-50 49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride,
fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her
daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And
they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them
away as I saw good. (KJV)
Gen 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and
also brought again his brother
Gen 19:1-91 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the
gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself
with his face toward the ground; 2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I
pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet,
and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. 3 And he
pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his
house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did
eat.
^i^ What angels? Read the whole story of the verse below.
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from
thence, and went toward
^i^ The story goes that 3 angels visited Abraham
and one was God (actually Jesus) and the 2 angels went to get Lot out of Sodom.
I like to say that some called the cities on a cellular phone to warn them that
2 were coming to cause trouble. The reason I say this jokingly is it always
seems that spies got around quite quickly and when you got where you were going
they already knew most of why you came.
Ezek 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and
in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
(KJV)
^i^
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom,
compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every
quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which
came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us,
that we may know them.
^i^ Where did the boys come from for a starter? Did
the men steal them from neighboring towns? If so where are the historic records, and the Bible certainly has no hint that boys were
stolen to populate
582 'enowsh (en-oshe');
from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120);
hence, a man in general (singly or collectively): KJV-- another, X [blood-]
thirsty, certain, chap [-man]; divers, fellow, X in the flower of their age,
husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (X of them), +
stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the English versions,
especially when used in apposition with another word .
Compare 376.
^i^ Ah! It can mean just people, it seems to mean the general population, but we can just assume it means males and be done with it for your sake. (note: the verse includes “ALL THE PEOPLE”)
3045 yada` (yaw-dah');
a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great
variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially
(including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction,
designation, punishment, etc.) [as follow]: KJV-- acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware,
[un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, comprehend,
consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern,
discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk,
kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have
[knowledge], (be, make, make to be, makeself) known, +
be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard,
have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be
sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will
be, wist, wit, wot.
^i^ Now we find the "to know" here it is not
talking about sex, but is trying to find out information about something. I
found 50 "to knows" and not one of them in context was
any where close to relating to sex. I also look up "know" and there were several
pages of verses that had that word. I browsed through them quickly and couldn't
find any either, but the word "knew" brought up very clear straight sexual acts,
but most of the verses with “knew” in it still meant finding info, and it has
the same meaning as the word "to know" in Greek. Note: Update! For
your information there are 943 forms of "to know" in the Bible, just 10 is
sexual intercourse. I have no doubt, even though the word “to know” in Gen. 5
is info gathering word, it related
meant they wanted to do a sexual act, but the sex they wanted to do just
was not anything like the "knew" word for sex in the Bible. Some "knew” did
involved rape. So we all agree "to know" is comfortably a sexual act here. What
king of sex was it? As we see
6 And
But
Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his
sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this
place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked
unto his sons in law. (KJV)
Please note: Both daughters were
married to a men that were citizens of
^I^ The above says
7489 ra` a` (raw-ah'); a primitive root;
properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or
be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally): KJV-- afflict,
associate selves [by mistake for 7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease,
(be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), showself
friendly [by mistake for 7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behaveself,
deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.
^I^ I believe these men fully intended to rape to death these 2 men. A very
close incident also compares:
Judg 19:22 Now as they were making their
hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the
house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to
the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into
thine house, that we may know him. (KJV)
Judg 19:25 But
the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her
forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the
morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. (KJV)
^i^ At no time is there the least comparison to gay behavior. Gay means far more than same sex sex. It means if you are gay then you are attracted to the same sex, just like if you are straight you are attracted to the opposite. This means anything straight do as straight, gay do as gay people. If you rape it is rape, not gay is sin! If straights commit prostitution they are prostitutes, not straight is sin. Now, were these towns homosexual?
Gen 14:2 That these made war with Bera king of
Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother
was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three
hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. (KJV)
Gen 14:11 And they took all the goods of
Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother
was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three
hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. (KJV)
Gen 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and
also brought again his brother
Women????????? I thought those that say gay is sin say that these cites were gay cities
am I to assume maybe the women here are lesbians?
Gen 14:21 And the king of
^i^ This is a very
important Bible clue to the population of these cities. It states plainly The king of
Gen 13:13 But the men of
^i^ Just how do you sin greatly (exceedingly) against the LORD? By the way this also explains how you behave love to God.
Deut 5:7-15
1) 7 Thou shalt
have none other gods before me.
2) 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image,
or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth
beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou
shalt
not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a
jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the
third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10 And
shewing
mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
3) 11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD
thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4) 12 Keep the sabbath
day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy
God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy
son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any
of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant
and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the
^i^ To love your neighbor as yourself is explained in the last 6 Commandments.
Now so Lot, his wife, and his 2 daughters were taken by the hand and urgently
taken out of Sodom as their was a deadline to meet, destruction would began and
they would hardly have time to get far enough away to be safe. The daughter’s spouses did not want to
leave
Gen 19:26 But his wife looked back
from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. (KJV)
Gen 19:31-38 31 And the firstborn said
unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come
in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 32 Come, let us make our father
drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in,
and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she
arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the
younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let
us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that
we may preserve seed of our Father. 35 And they made their father drink wine
that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not
when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of
This story is almost never told. The husbands of Lot’s daughters stayed in
A related story told:
Judg 19:22-30 22 Now as they were making their
hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the
house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to
the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into
thine house, that we may know him. 23 And the man, the master of the
house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray
you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not
this folly. 24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I
will bring out now, and humble ye
them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but
unto this man do not so vile a thing. 25 But the men
would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth
unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning:
and when the day began to spring, they let her go. 26 Then came the woman in the
dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the
man's house where her lord was, till it was light. 27 And her lord rose up in
the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and,
behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and
her hands were upon the threshold. 28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us
be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and
the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. 29 And when he was come into his
house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her,
together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of
When studying the Bible it is always required to do homework on issues and not jump at conclusions. What sounds like something to you may not be what it is at all. If you are straight it is perhaps not easy to understand gays. Keep in mind easy way to know gays is “boy meets boy, they date, they fall in love, then they marry. Does not matter if you like it or not, but it matter that is you use the Bible to condemn gays you need to find gays to condemn. Not gang rapists…
Final touch for now is listed below:
What was the sin of Sodom? (link hopefully still exists, as of 09-16-07 it does)
A collection of classical Jewish texts
Compilation and commentary by Robert Kaiser
With an additional note from Arthur Waskow
Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy
Consider the following texts:
****
Your elder sister is
Ezekiel 16:46-50
*****
the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance...
Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5
*****
The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...
There were four judges in
If one wounded his neighbour they would say to the victim, Give him a fee for bleeding thee [bloodletting was sometimes considered medically beneficial in those days; Here the Sodomite judge cruelly ruled that if one beats you until you bleed, you owe your attacker money for this "beneficial" medical service"...]
... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched him out...
If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a denar [coin], upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given [the store owners recognized such coins, and refused toa accept them]. When he died, each came and took back his (denar)...
A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, hiding it in a pitcher. On
the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the
parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of
Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a
*****
Said R Levi, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. There was the case of two girls, who went down to draw water from the well. One said to her friend, Why are you pale? The other said, All the food is gone from our house and we are ready to die. What did the other do? She filled the jug with flour and exchanged it for her own. Each took the one of the other. When the Sodomites found out about it, they took the girl (who had shared the food) and burned her. Said the Holy One, blessed be He, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. What is written is not, 'In accord with their cry', but, 'according to her cry', referring in particular to the girl.
Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 49:6
*****
R Menhama in the name of R Bibi: This is what the Sodomites had stipulated among themselves. They said, As to any wayfarer who comes here, we shall have sexual relations with him and take away his money.
Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 50:7
*****
Rabbi Jehudah said: They made a proclamation in
Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer
*****
Nachmanides commenting on the verse "AND WE SHALL KNOW THEM".
Their intention was to stop people from coming among them, as our rabbis have
said, for they thought that because of the excellence of their land... many will
come there and they despised charity... they continued provoking and rebelling
against Him with their ease and the oppression of the poor... In the opinion of
our Rabbis, all evil practices were rampant among them. Yet their fate was
sealed because of this sin - i.e. they did not strengthen the hand of the poor
and needy - since this sin represented their usual behaviour
more than any other. Besides, since all peoples act righteously towards their
friends and their poor, there was none among all the nations who matched
Nahmanides (Ramban) Commentary on Genesis, 13th century
****** For similar views see Numbers Rabbah 9:24 (midrash), the JPS Torah Commentary on Genesis by Nahum M. Sarna, page 135, note #5, and the 'Stone Edition of the Chumash' [better known as the Artscroll Chumash] by Mesorah publications, commentary on page 81.
So the next time someone tries to use Genesis as an excuse to justify homophobia, we can educate them by giving them these sources to read and consider.
Shalom,
Robert Kaiser
****************** Many many thanks to Robert
Kaiser for doing the work of collecting those powerful passages about the sin of
One day a member of the Council put forward a proposal for ending or greatly reducing the influx of Jews from poorer regions into Vilna, where they hoped for a better life. The Gaon rose to leave the meeting. "But Rabbi," said a Councilmember, "we need your comment on this proposed new legislation!"
"What new legislation?" said the Gaon. "This was already the
law of
The proposal was dropped.
Shalom,
Arthur Waskow
The Stables Ministries Home of Gays For Jesus TV Programs
Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com