Sodom and Gomorrah

"Sodom And Gomorrah" Episode: 1351 Length: 28 min.

Sodom and Gomorrah

 Genesis Chapter 19

Attempted Gang Rape and Murder?
Gang rape killing the victim is just not gay behavior

 Original Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:21:25 EDT Updated Saturday, December 18, 2004 

Genesis Chapter 19
Does not describe gays at all

 Funny how so many still think Sodom was a mostly gay city. Where did the boys come from for a starter? Got to have a woman, right? Abraham saved Lot by saving the king of Sodom and you can read much into the information about the city. It was a straight city.

What is the Bible story per the verses?

Accusation verse to condemn gays:

Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: (KJV)

Every boy, every grandpa, every man, and ALL the People. These are the ones that came to Lot’s house and they came to do something:

Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. (KJV)
wickedly = 7489  ra` a` (raw-ah'); a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally): KJV-- afflict, associate selves [by mistake for 7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), showself friendly [by mistake for 7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behaveself, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.

As is the definition these people did not plan a fun time in sex with the two angels, it is very clear in Lot’s use of the Hebrew word “wickedly”. To understand something about gays is who are gay people? What ever your idea is the FACT is gays are this: Boy meets boy, they date, they fall in love, then they marry. You better know this behavior by reviewing what Straight is: Boy meets girl, they date, they fall in love, then they marry. The above at the very best is attempted gang rape to murder the victims.

 God (Jesus) spoke with Abraham concerning destroying Sodom and Gomorrah:

Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. (KJV)

We know this story, but it is almost never brought up when discussing gays being destroyed in Sodom.

The true sins of Sodom and Gomorrah told:

Ezek 16:49-50 49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. (KJV)

Sodom was straight:

Gen 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people. (KJV)

Gen 19:1-91 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; 2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. 3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

^i^ What angels? Read the whole story of the verse below.

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. (KJV)

^i^ The story goes that 3 angels visited Abraham and one was God (actually Jesus) and the 2 angels went to get Lot out of Sodom. I like to say that some called the cities on a cellular phone to warn them that 2 were coming to cause trouble. The reason I say this jokingly is it always seems that spies got around quite quickly and when you got where you were going they already knew most of why you came. Lot did what was right and was hospitable. Here explained shows no concern by citizens of these cities for those in need:

Ezek 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (KJV)

^i^ Lot quickly showed concern for travelers in need of a place to stay. The above verse show why these cities were destroyed. Why is the Church saying it was destroyed because it was a gay city?

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

^i^ Where did the boys come from for a starter? Did the men steal them from neighboring towns? If so where are the historic records, and the Bible certainly has no hint that boys were stolen to populate Sodom. Can you image every boy and every grandpa there for the purpose to have sex with these 2 men? And please tell me how many men came from every quarter? A few hundred? 1000s? 10,000s? What does "to know mean? And how about the word "men?

582 'enowsh (en-oshe'); from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively): KJV-- another, X [blood-] thirsty, certain, chap [-man]; divers, fellow, X in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (X of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the English versions, especially when used in apposition with another word . Compare 376.

^i^ Ah! It can mean just people, it seems to mean the general population, but we can just assume it means males and be done with it for your sake. (note: the verse includes “ALL THE PEOPLE”)

3045 yada` (yaw-dah'); a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) [as follow]: KJV-- acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, makeself) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.

^i^ Now we find the "to know" here it is not talking about sex, but is trying to find out information about something. I found 50 "to knows" and not one of them in context was any where close to relating to sex. I also look up "know" and there were several pages of verses that had that word. I browsed through them quickly and couldn't find any either, but the word "knew" brought up very clear straight sexual acts, but most of the verses with “knew” in it still meant finding info, and it has the same meaning as the word "to know" in Greek. Note: Update! For your information there are 943 forms of "to know" in the Bible, just 10 is sexual intercourse. I have no doubt, even though the word “to know”  in Gen. 5  is info gathering word, it related  meant they wanted to do a sexual act, but the sex they wanted to do just was not anything like the "knew" word for sex in the Bible. Some "knew” did involved rape. So we all agree "to know" is comfortably a sexual act here. What king of sex was it? As we see Lot was very ready to give his virgin daughters to them for it was a very important custom and tradition to be hospitable to guest in those days. Daughters were 2^nd fiddle to guests. Giving one’s daughter to be raped was better then having a guest dishonored.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. (KJV)

But Lot’s daughters were married! (I have two daughters which have not known man; ABOVE)

Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. (KJV)

Please note:  Both daughters were married to a men that were citizens of Sodom. These men refused to go with the Angels and so survive.

^I^ The above says Lot said don't do wickedly. So what does he mean?

7489 ra` a` (raw-ah'); a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally): KJV-- afflict, associate selves [by mistake for 7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), showself friendly [by mistake for 7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behaveself, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.

^I^ I believe these men fully intended to rape to death these 2 men. A very close incident also compares:

Judg 19:22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. (KJV)

Judg 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. (KJV)

^i^ At no time is there the least comparison to gay behavior. Gay means far more than same sex sex. It means if you are gay then you are attracted to the same sex, just like if you are straight you are attracted to the opposite. This means anything straight do as straight, gay do as gay people. If you rape it is rape, not gay is sin! If straights commit prostitution they are prostitutes, not straight is sin. Now, were these towns homosexual?

Gen 14:2 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar. (KJV)

Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. (KJV)

Gen 14:11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way. (KJV)

Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. (KJV)

Gen 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people. (KJV)

Women????????? I thought those that say gay is sin say that these cites were gay cities am I to assume maybe the women here are lesbians?

Gen 14:21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons (people), and take the goods to thyself. (KJV)

^i^ This is a very important Bible clue to the population of these cities. It states plainly The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people". What people? " and the women also". Lot got back everything already that was taken during that war. Now, a greater point is here. These goods means there was product for trade and commerce and this again adds clues to historically learning about the people of the region. Recently I watch a documentary on finding these cities. The geological finding of remains in two cities around the Dead Sea indicates there were these 2 cities or closely nit with them. Families were found and other remnants of a very straight community. Those that say these cities were populated with gays have nothing to base that on. Facts however points clearly to two very sinful cities.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. (KJV)

^i^ Just how do you sin greatly (exceedingly) against the LORD? By the way this also explains how you behave love to God.

Deut 5:7-15

1) 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

2) 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

3) 11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4) 12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. (KJV)

^i^ To love your neighbor as yourself is explained in the last 6 Commandments.

Now so Lot, his wife, and his 2 daughters were taken by the hand and urgently taken out of Sodom as their was a deadline to meet, destruction would began and they would hardly have time to get far enough away to be safe.  The daughter’s spouses did not want to leave Sodom so did not come with them. Lot’s wife looked back in disobedience to the command given them “not to look back”. She was instantly turned to a pillar of salt. What do you suppose happened to Lot and his 2 daughters shortly there after?

Gen 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. (KJV)

Gen 19:31-38 31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our Father. 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. (KJV)

This story is almost never told. The husbands of Lot’s daughters stayed in Sodom and there were no grieving the loss of husbands mentioned but instead right away Daughters raped their father 2 nights in a row and got his babies.

A related story told: 

Judg 19:22-30 22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. 23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. 24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. 25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. 26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light. 27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. 28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. 29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. 30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds. (KJV)

When studying the Bible it is always required to do homework on issues and not jump at conclusions. What sounds like something to you may not be what it is at all. If you are straight it is perhaps not easy to understand gays. Keep in mind easy way to know gays is “boy meets boy, they date, they fall in love, then they marry. Does not matter if you like it or not, but it matter that is you use the Bible to condemn gays you need to find gays to condemn. Not gang rapists…

Final touch for now is listed below:

What was the sin of Sodom? (link  hopefully still exists, as of 09-16-07 it does)

A collection of classical Jewish texts

Compilation and commentary by Robert Kaiser

With an additional note from Arthur Waskow

Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy Sodom and Gemorrah because their inhabitants were homosexual. Not at all. Rather, the cities were destroyed because the inhabitents were nasty, depraved, and uncompromisingly greedy. Classical Jewish writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were, among others, terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and to outsiders. Saying "God killed them because they were gay" is, to say the least, not the Jewish teaching on the subject.

Consider the following texts:

****

Your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. You not only followed their ways, and acted according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.

Ezekiel 16:46-50

*****

the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance...

Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5

*****

The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...

There were four judges in Sodom named Shakrai (Liar), Shakurai (Awful Liar), Zayyafi (Forger), and Mazle Dina (Perverter of Justice). Now if a man assaulted his neighbour's wife and bruised her, they would say to the husband, Give her to him, that she may become pregnant for thee. If one cut off the ear of his neighbour's ass, they would order, Give it to him until it grows again.

If one wounded his neighbour they would say to the victim, Give him a fee for bleeding thee [bloodletting was sometimes considered medically beneficial in those days; Here the Sodomite judge cruelly ruled that if one beats you until you bleed, you owe your attacker money for this "beneficial" medical service"...]

... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched him out...

If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a denar [coin], upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given [the store owners recognized such coins, and refused toa accept them]. When he died, each came and took back his (denar)... 

A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, hiding it in a pitcher. On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is great (rabbah): whereupon Rab Judah commented in Rab's name: on account of the maiden (ribah).

Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a

*****

Said R Levi, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. There was the case of two girls, who went down to draw water from the well. One said to her friend, Why are you pale? The other said, All the food is gone from our house and we are ready to die. What did the other do? She filled the jug with flour and exchanged it for her own. Each took the one of the other. When the Sodomites found out about it, they took the girl (who had shared the food) and burned her. Said the Holy One, blessed be He, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. What is written is not, 'In accord with their cry', but, 'according to her cry', referring in particular to the girl.

Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 49:6

*****

R Menhama in the name of R Bibi: This is what the Sodomites had stipulated among themselves. They said, As to any wayfarer who comes here, we shall have sexual relations with him and take away his money.

Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 50:7

*****

Rabbi Jehudah said: They made a proclamation in Sodom saying: Everyone who strengthens the hand of the poor or the needy with a loaf of bread shall be burnt by fire. Peletith, daughter of Lot, was wedded to one of the magnates of Sodom. She saw a certain very poor man in the street of the city, and her soul was grieved on his account... Every day when she went out to draw water she put in her bucket all sorts of provisions from her home, and she fed that poor man. The men of Sodom said: How does this poor man live? When they ascertained the facts, they brought her forth to be burnt by fire. She said: Sovereign of all the worlds! maintain my right and my cause (at the hands of) the men of Sodom. And her cry ascended before the Throne of Glory. In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, said: I will now descend and I will see whether the men of Sodom have done according to the cry of this young woman, I will turn her foundation upwards, and the surface thereof shall be turned downwards.

Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer

*****

Nachmanides commenting on the verse "AND WE SHALL KNOW THEM".

Their intention was to stop people from coming among them, as our rabbis have said, for they thought that because of the excellence of their land... many will come there and they despised charity... they continued provoking and rebelling against Him with their ease and the oppression of the poor... In the opinion of our Rabbis, all evil practices were rampant among them. Yet their fate was sealed because of this sin - i.e. they did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy - since this sin represented their usual behaviour more than any other. Besides, since all peoples act righteously towards their friends and their poor, there was none among all the nations who matched Sodom in cruelty.

Nahmanides (Ramban) Commentary on Genesis, 13th century

****** For similar views see Numbers Rabbah 9:24 (midrash), the JPS Torah Commentary on Genesis by Nahum M. Sarna, page 135, note #5, and the 'Stone Edition of the Chumash' [better known as the Artscroll Chumash] by Mesorah publications, commentary on page 81.

So the next time someone tries to use Genesis as an excuse to justify homophobia, we can educate them by giving them these sources to read and consider.

Shalom,

Robert Kaiser

****************** Many many thanks to Robert Kaiser for doing the work of collecting those powerful passages about the sin of Sodom. They clarify the story (for which unfortunately I can't site a source) about the great Gaon of Vilna, who sat with voice but no vote on the Council of the Jews of Vilna. His task was to comment from a Torah perspective on new legislation proposed before the Council. When there was no such new legislation, he did not take part in the meeting.

One day a member of the Council put forward a proposal for ending or greatly reducing the influx of Jews from poorer regions into Vilna, where they hoped for a better life. The Gaon rose to leave the meeting. "But Rabbi," said a Councilmember, "we need your comment on this proposed new legislation!"

"What new legislation?" said the Gaon. "This was already the law of Sodom, long ago!" And he left.

The proposal was dropped.

Shalom,

Arthur Waskow

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