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A reply from jim.plm.clvnd
gays and the endtime Church (part 2 of 2)
Received: (from jim.plm.clvnd@)
To: gaysforjesus@juno.com (now updated to stablesministries@gays4jesus.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 22:55:28 EDT
Subject: A reply form Jim - PLM - Clynd
Dear John,
I can't take the time right now to read the complete message that you sent me regarding gays and the endtime of the church. It's not that I don't care, but I think that I can quickly respond to your basic question.
^i^ oh
God does care about everyone, including those struggling with homosexuality, and so do I. I have been there myself. I struggled with homosexuality primarily after I came to know the Lord as my personal savior back in 1976. It was a terribly confusing time for me and back then there was very little help for a Christian who was struggling. Praise God, that years later when I was ready to finally come out of that sinful lifestyle in 1990, he provided the needed help for me and my now former lover who accepted Jesus as his savior and decided to come out of that same lifestyle.
^i^ Hmmm, So far you have told me that you struggled after you got Saved? Then years later "finally" "ready" to come out of that sinful life style? I have gone thru your message and found no hint what made you think it became sin after many years of becoming a Christian? WOW you and your lover delivered of homosexuality? I would have really liked it if you presented some facts for your decision. I know why gay are confused with the 700 year old anti-gay Church doctrine. How did you arrive at that gay is a sinful life style any way?
It has been now over 7 years of freedom from that lifestyle and a life of fulfillment in Him, who is the only real source of peace and joy and love. I have a wonderful testimony that I will gladly send you if you would like it. Please let me know. I have part of it in a small brochure.
^i^ Well looky here a fact 7 years of so called freedom from "what lifestyle"? The wider fact is that ex-gay ministers last about 7 - 9 years before realizing Jesus has never asked them to change and be straight. Your regular clients last 1 - 2 years before they figure it out. Please do send your testimony. You said " only real source of peace and joy and love." Do you mean if you are gay you don't have " real source of peace and joy and love"? That is really interesting. I wonder then what do I have? I am 50.5 years old 23.5 as a born again believer with a wonderful testimony. Tell me why is it the you deny the facts? Isn't Jesus the truth? It would seem to me that you should be very interested in a gay person's testimony that shows Jesus very much a part of their " lifestyle". I have peace that passeth understanding. I probably know your testimony by heart. You see part of my ministry is to show the truth about ex-gay ministries. Tell me why do you think I wrote you? Do you really think you have something knew to offer. I am certainly willing to hear it and my life is seeking the truth in God's Word. I came to Christ because I held truth above all else. I was at that alter and my lover sitting on the bench in the meeting place with a transvestite friend that attempted to witness to me though I completely rejected that attempt, but Jesus is so good that I did go to that meeting and accepted Christ. I swallowed hook line and sinker for Jesus in less than 5 minutes. My life changed from a complete atheist to person willing to sacrifice all to the Lord. Have you walk with me the road to Salvation? You did not and apparently have not considered asking gay Christians to give account of their faith. 1976 to 1990 what did you do? Did you research the Word? Did you research the historical records? Did you interview born again gay Christians and any gay calling himself a Christian? Lots of people have different ideas on what constitutes a real believer. I summarize my faith when generalizing for the broader public can get some kind of instant prospective on what I generally believe by saying I am a 23 year Assemblies of God man. This gives a general characteristic of deep belief in the Word of God including the Pentecostal experience. I have been preaching on TV for 12. 5 years every week. I now have a web site where letters like yours can be read with my comments explaining things that seems so simple, but because of the 700 year old Church anti-gay doctrine many Christian can't accept materiel unless it is against gays. The Bible does not condemn gays. Every verse used I go into details on to show the originals and the historical evolution of the verse to mean today gay is sin. Nearly all the verses used against gays originated near the end of the 12th century when the Church joined with the State to create a universal law of the land. If you have internet access (usually free from home using local libraries) you can access my home page
http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/9647 (that was old site, now the new site is: gays4jesus.com) and find many links to sites that also goes into many things I talk about as well as nearly 50 of my own links to my comments. I add to this regularly. I have personally researched information on many ex-gay ministries. I have personally talked with several leaders and ex-ex-gay leaders. I have materiel on some 76 ex-gay ministries and results on others that have studied ex-gay ministries for decades, mine is only 1. 5 decades of research. The point isn't ex-gay ministries it's that people like you get saved then automatically assume gay is sin along with the many that are homophobic in the Church. If you just were satisfied with being straight why not accept that instead of joining anti-gay preachers to condemn the innocent. Most homophobic Christians won't accept the Word of God using research into the originals and what those words were used for in the day they were penned. Most won't take time to look at present day gays unless to show those that hurt so bad. You were so confused because of a 700 year old doctrine not because gay is sin. Now you are on the ban wagon to preach this 700 year old doctrine condemning the innocent. We are at a time that the cup is full up to the brim. God always moves when the cup is full (see Larry Wilson's full cup message). You right now have no hope to see God's wonderful plan concerning the Last Days concerning gays and the Church. Hopefully you have not completely closed your eyes on 600 million gays.We don't have to stay in our sin. He wants to help us regardless of where we are right now. We just have to want him more than anything else.
^i^ Are you preaching to me about sin? I am one of those chief sinners that Paul calls himself. You want to turn from sin then turn from your 600 million murders and repent. Please find
Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper founders of Exodus International and listen to their message today. They are lovers now. You are telling me Jesus wants to help me? He has been helping me for over 2 decades. Were you there when I was told I'd would be sent to prison if I preached Jesus as the Christ? Then that same night he sent a pastor to not only give me my first Hebrew and Greek dictionary as a gift from his church when that congregation prayed asking Jesus what should they give me ( that was exactly what I had been praying for to far away from them). After I told that pastor my circumstance he gave me word from the Lord to agree with my enemy while I was in the way with him (her) and in the future I would have authority over people like her. Here in the USA I was about to be thrown in prison preaching Jesus as Christ and told that I could preach Jesus the good man and teacher. Is Jesus close to me and me to him. Were you there in my darkest hour, Jesus was and I was able to praise him though it had never been so dark. Were you there when so many prophets, pastors, deacons, camp meeting preachers, etc. prophesied over me thru the years. Did you hear what they said? Were you there when I had ask God to confirmed I was doing the right things on TV. People get that way after awhile and want something from God so to confirm they aren't wondering off the wrong way. It was on a 2 week vacation and I had prayed for some time before the trip for such an answer. It was in the last part of the vacation a man high on a mountain over looking the lake I was at had a wonderful thought to go down to that lake he saw from the hill. He camped next to my camp and got 2 chairs out and went fishing. I had no impression about him and would have cared less, but when he returned he right away invited me to sit with him. For 2 days he read off the list I gave to God and explained things thoroughly admitting he never does this kind of thing. I had told him I was gay and did TV programs. He asked to see one. I had my equipment and had just finished a program and so showed it to him. He was amazed and said my creditability was right there in my program a fact to my call. He made a point to teach me about this and said he would be a fool to tell me what he had accomplished without creditability and to make his point he pulled out several well known magazines with articles of his accomplishments which included many patents that were significant as well as a method for teaching trigonometry far faster that any other way. He had documents from the head of Boeing on a teaching tool for mechanical engineers. My point is this man was not some someone off the street but a specially selected individual that could give my the answers I sought from the Lord. The order of which he gave me the answers I sought from God amazed me. Me a nobody and God took this much time to send someone to me expressing I was right in the place I was supposed to be and doing HIS will. I have not begun to tell you my relationship with Jesus. The picture he put before my face for me to try to explain what is about to happen to the Church never leave me. Jesus expresses his emotions to me on issues and it is overwhelming. He has helped in ordinary family matters with my lover. He has answered so many prayers and healed of 3 major physical problems and some not so serious ones too. He has healed my cars at times. He has headed my dogs. I arrived with my sister, a 1000 mile flight to my dad's bedside long enough for him to know we got their (less than two hours) then saw mom pray:Ps 23:1-6
1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. (KJV)
^i^ where when she finished he died. Jesus was so close to us all my dad's children were at his bedside at home as hr went home to be with the Lord. There are too many wonderful things with Jesus an me too mention. I can go on forever about how good Jesus is to me. Even that darkest hour he sent a messenger to ask me if I would accept from the Lord a lesson in fear. I knew this was from God and I knew if He is telling me this then it would be so very real, painful, scary and not some Sunday picnic. I accepted and within 2 weeks my life changed and I learned fear and not the short version. When that lesson was done with some restoring process I soon rec'd the revelation of a chapter God gave from almost the beginning of my Salvation. Soon after that I was on TV an impossibility for me and now into my 13th year. I love Jesus so much and he often expresses his love for me. His presence never leaves me. I feel him all the time. He is so good. He is with me in the Christian chat rooms on-line where I am swamped with homophobic questions and attacks. Every time I go online that room focus' on me and I have witnessing opportunities galore. Thousands of e-mail. I can't keep up. Mixed in many host welcome and support me even as much as giving me private address to reach the head sysop who was the wife of one host. So many going out of their way to express acceptance on me while the on slot of persecutions and so many saying I can't be saved or my Jesus is satan. Yet after hours sometimes every night I can turn off the computer and go to my lover with great peace and joy. I can go to work with peace that passeth understanding though I've been in the fire. My TV program the first 3 years while I kept records and had a number on the screen brought to my ears 300,000 phone calls 75% anti-gay and yet I come away in peace and still able to minister to them without hate or harbor any idea to wish any harm, but only blessing to them. I have been threatened many times, still have that peace. I can and am willing to die if necessary without concern of where I am going. Jesus is with me. I love you and those ex-gay leaders enough to stand in for you at that day as intercessor so that you might be spared from the deceiver. (Masons) who have already worked out and fulfilled their goals of over 80 years subtly infiltrating Sunday schools in the USA so at in this day they (Christians) will soon believed Jesus lied to them and so turn their backs on him to accept this wonderful man calling himself God after seeming proving it using technology mainly. So in summary I turned to Jesus and away from sin though sin never escapes me. It is by his Grace I can live each day and by his forgiveness I am spotless before God. Gay is not sin and Jesus is not asking the gay person to change and be straight. You are in error to assume gay is sin. Even more so now that another person has talked to you about this matter.
You can e-mail again, but I don't often get to check my mail and I will be out of town from the 11th through the 18th. You can write to our ministry address: Pure Life Minsitries of Cleveland, P.O. Box 39244, North Ridgeville, OH 44039, or call me at (440) 353-3384.
^i^ I am e-mailing you and as you have a ministry shouldn't you be obligated to check your mail. I bet you check your POB and home mail and answer phone. Well if you use e-mail in ministry you need to have a routine to check it too. Are you a one man operation? If so you have some excuse if you have much work. But apparently you do not get much e-mail. My relationship to you is I am giving you a message not the other way around. Your message is the same as any ex-gay ministry and like I said I have 76 or so such ex-gay ministries in my data base. Your message is hopelessness and you don't even know that yet. With all the info around you'd think that you would at least be seeing some valid points against what you believe about gays, yet, you are telling me it's a sinful lifestyle. From a mile away anyone can see the difference between the message of the anti-gay and that from those on the side of gays and gays themselves. Every town meeting type of format shows the "Church" side is cold, hopeless, without love while the gay side is full of love and hope with out prejudices. Yes, in these meetings lots of non-Christians speak out on the side of gays. Christian should recognize unbelievers and not condemn all for the sake of them. Hearing from these unbelievers should ring a bell to Christians that are full of strict rules saying God's word says its sin by there showing that the "love" from Christians looks like "hate". To say you love some one is meaningless. Love is a behavior not a word. Hate is also a behavior and not a word. So people can see if the Church loves them or hates them. Jesus made this simple and easy to discern. If you love a gay person you don't need to tell him to turn from his evil lifestyle. God writes His Laws on tablets of flesh not on the mouth of Christians. You know you are long distance why offer your phone number unless you want me to call collect. Maybe if I am in North Ridgeville, OH I will call you or drop in to interview you for my program. Its highly unlikely unless you take up my challenge concerning this issue with the Church. I have a standing challenge that under the covering of a church (Christian Bible believing) where in this case you would have your pastor invite me to the alter where the deacons, elders, various ministers and assistant pastors, and the pastor along with the congregation would first pray for me as their faith demands. I am Pentecostal and so that would involve laying on hands, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, with interpretation, prophesy, on & on. Preaching, bringing up verses to back them, bring in Bible scholars, still on & on taking as long as they feel they reached God ( I would encourage first that church set a time for fasting and prayer as needed to cover demons that will only come out with this kind of preliminary work. After which I will take my turn alone calling on God taking as long or as short as I feel need to. Doing all the above or none of it as I felt led. Then see what God will do. I really doubt you think gays are important enough to really take some sort of real faith effort for them. I know it is far more fun to collect fees for counseling and follow behavior modification techniques developed by the secular world. If your ministry does differently please send me your packet explaining what your ministry bases its policies after for getting a gay straight. Also tell me your charges. Steve Black of Exodus thought I didn't know what I was talking about when I ask him about its founders. He practically denied
Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper were even the founders let alone lovers out preaching how wrong they were and what harm they caused so many knowing many under the ex-gay banner feels so helpless suicide is their way out. Just how sincere are you? Pray asking God to gather together this Mt Camel meeting to get answers concerning gays. Don't hold onto a 700 years anti-gay doctrine as gospel, it is not gospel.God bless you my dear brother. Your loving brother in Christ Jesus, Jim Suchenski
Loving? You don't have time remember? Love is a behavior not words. I see words, but the behavior says:
I can't take the time right now to read the complete message that you sent me regarding gays and the endtime of the church. It's not that I don't care, but I think that I can quickly respond to your basic question.
Your short response hardly is a response of LOVE. Now if you take time in your life to get involved in your belief that gay is sin and research it to the hilt to see if you are right or your sources are correct. This will take lots of time which you say you don't have. Your behaviors say you don't care and are happy with the peace of God to let 600 million die with no hope in God. If gay is sin then you would have known it by research and not by conditioning and traditions. The Greek and Hebrew right away tells you it is not talking about gays. You were gay why do you think its evil and I don't. Was it because even unsaved you already swallowed the lie about gay by the Church and so hated yourself based on conclusions of others? Well there are just to many in dept studies that says most gays aren't the apparently sad and sickened person you might have been at the hand of the Church. Now you joined with them to accuse the innocent. You would not dare allow a God fearing openly Gay person that knows God's word come to speak to your clients concerning facts would you? A number of times the American Psychiatric Assoc. presented their finding always upgrading gays to perfectly normal in all areas. Nothing evil in there studies. Does the Church condemn this group just because it gives gays a clean bill of health or because the Church found extremely evil research being conducted which lied about gays on every point? I rather doubt you would at this time even think gays could be of God. God made us all for His special purposes and Gays are no exception. Watch in the Last days how God uses gays to restore Christians that are loosing their faith. Those that so often persecuted gays, these gays will with unconditional love with complete forgiveness reach out to those Christians that believed gay to be sin showing them even Jesus never left them after all and they cab hold fast till he come.
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Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com