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From: John Paulk, Vice-President, Exodus International North America, This letter is to inform you that numerous recipients of Exodus email have been receiving material and email from your organization . Reply back: You simply can't expect freedom to condemn and threaten with out some sort of reply.
Comments in reply to
John Paulk, Vice-President,
Exodus International North America
From:
paulk@integrityonline.com
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:29:12 -0800 "paulk" <paulk@integrityonline.com> writes:
To Whom it May Concern,
This letter is to inform you that numerous recipients of Exodus email have been receiving material and email from your organization. Some of these leaders have requested more than once to be removed from your email list. So far you have not complied. It is a federal law to remove someone from your email list if they are requesting this. Failure to comply with this request is cause for prosecution. Since you are a Christian organization, we would very much apprecaite your cooperation in not sending mail to the Exodus International Leader's list.
Thank You,
John Paulk
Vice-President
Exodus International North America
^i^ Hi John Paulk
Just got your e-mail thanks. I don't intend to start sending you e-mail from these leaders and their comments just to show you you just can't set there and get return comments that demand a reply. You simply can't expect freedom to condemn and threaten with out some sort of reply. I have not been any other than bringing to their attention things that are quite true.
Why is it so hard to deal with people just because they are gay? You must only deal with those wanting to change and then falsely. Stephan Black has sent me many e-mail messages. He first told me I should not speak about the founders of Exodus International when I don't know what I am saying. He was very much calling me a liar. Well, I have extensive facts about the founders and their detailed process of finally starting Exodus. I wrote back giving Stephen a step by step account of the founders so he would not continue to think of me as someone not knowing what I am talking about. Now, I have read Bob Davies testimony and a large number of ex-gay leaders' testimonies. These testimonies are in the public arena. I have every right to comment on public information.
If those ex-gay leader would have not commented to me in a negative fashion which demanded a reply from me then What reason would I have to reply to them. I would soon be finish with my work with the ex-gays for this phase and be gone. And if these testimonies weren't public then the public wouldn't have a reason to respond. Why do you dislike someone digging into ex-gay leaders testimonies anyway? If it is a true testimony of deliverance from our God and the Lord Jesus Christ then the testimony will stand. Instead Exodus and groups are saying publicly thing that simply are not true about gays. They are not these "victim set" people that ex-gay leaders are. I even get e-mail sent me from between ex-gay leaders talking about me. I don't know how they get to me, but I get them. Guess someone there wants me to see enter ex-gay leaders messages. Actually some good comments and some that you should take concern for if they(the ex-gay leader) then you should let it be and see what God intends.
As I said I'll be done soon enough and be on my way. Like one ex-gay leader said he has a delete button. One said he'd put my comment on his web sight and go over his testimony to make clearer some point that were quite vague, but important. So all is not as you say. I have ask many of you for some information. You are vice president then you should have information about what Exodus says about its founders. The actual founders are out now preaching and I have specific statements from them. They tell their story on tape and I have materiel direct from the person that personally got their story, they have spoken at least at one major college. They say the 1st 3 years was at least a 100% failure rate. You may say that it is much better now. I personally know Sylvia Pentington and her work where there was a 100% failure rate. I have personal face to face facts besides a wealth of other info from others. Your statements to discredit these groups can't discredit what I personally seen.
You now are in the same building in your Seattle branch located with Metonia which I have had many contacts with since the late 80's. I personally talked for hours with Doug Houck and have friends that has seen him get into cars in front of gay bars in Seattle. Now of course he doesn't lead Metonoia does he? I think the ex-gay ministries need to begin to take account of itself, don't you? If gay is sin then it should stand the test, not only of the Bible, but in actual circumstances. Does Romans condemn gays or not. So far
I can't seem to get you or others to stand up in your faith. We can meet here in Seattle Exodus is 20 minutes away from me. Let me see how you change gays to straights. Open up your files to me to investigate. I want to see the gays (doesn't have to be in name) that changed to straight. Let me see their testimonies. I have a TV program I can bring up the true if you let me. If these gays are now straight or turning straight then their testimonies will show it. If they persist to be such guilt ridden childhoods hating themselves and their gayness and so forth you have no case. I was never such a person and most gays are not such people. Yes, sick people need a counselor, but you don't have to lie to them. Stephan Black's testimony is void of researching the Word of God. He was directed directly to a pastor that taught him gay is sin, just like he wanted to be taught. He never indicated one moment to check out this gay is sin doctrine. Bob Davies is ridiculous. Sex with women then got the hots for one at an ex-gay ministry and married her. He never had gay relationship. Bisexuality is so common among ex-gay leaders.
I am trying very hard to maintain an open mind that some where there is an ex-gay that meets the normal common testimony of life of gay people. I haven't found one yet. L.I.F.E. a Pentecostal group whom I personally met and held its leaders in my arms with the pastor at Queen Anne AOG as the Holy Spirit drew them into my arms to I could hug them in love and pray in tongues over them. The pastor was extremely violent looking towards me and the ex-gay leader asking non-stop what I though of anal intercourse. When I had finished praying that pastor changed instantly to a attitude of kindness and respect inviting me to return that evening to finish getting my program for TV done. The ex-gay minister vanished out of sight. I have their thick package of information outlining in detail its program. Where is God in your program it was not in the Pentecostal package, but secular behavior modification techniques were. ^ people gave their testimonies that evening 6 people when talking about their past had very noticeable twinkles and sparkles in their eyes when they discussed their past relationships. The pet ex-gay had testified he finally after 6 years got a good handle on it and when I came up to him to hand him the Hebrew for sodomite he turn stiff as a log and ran so fast away.
A vice president of a previous to Metonoia who now is an ex- ex-gay called me after seeing me on TV to tell me his testimony. He was there went Doug Houck was being prayed for and going through their ex-gay ministry. At one point the president (a straight woman) tried to get him(vice president) to marry her. This was the final straw showing he hadn't changed at all and resigned from the ministry. There is lots more to his testimony so don't assume too much. As I said I have had plenty of contact in the past with ex-gay ministries. One consistent thing I find in ex-gays is this "father image" thing. For the life of me I can't understand this theory at all. ( I really understand better than you'll ever know, its a common illness of human beings gay or straight, few get this illness). How the ex-gays have twisted a common human trait into gay is sin is pure craziness. Just because some sick gays are trapped and need help because they fixed on a father syndrome don't make this gay is sin. (mother image for women). When I heard Doug Houck tell me this theory made it sounded like his own I thought he was absolutely nuts, but listened to him respectfully to try to find some thread of credibility to the ex-gay movement. Its very young you know. Guess the Church never felt a need till 3 or 4 decades ago. But even then not until Exodus did the rush towards ex-gays really get going. I guess all the rest of the centuries gays had no hope right?
Have you studied how the psychiatric Association came up with today a report that there is a total of nothing wrong with gays as being abnormal or immoral if you will or sick or victim set or anything else. Well you can and I see have in info available through your links tried to discredit such reports. I am almost 51 now. I have studied, I have read from the authors own mouth of how modern day reports got its starts. You see at the time psychiatric groups only studied sick gays, (like the ones going to ex-gays, though you do get milder cases because you are getting the benefit of those hanging on the fringe that why they soon find you are wrong and leave the ex-gays. You will also find this to be true and leave. Over all leaders last 6 -8 years, and very few longer. You should know that. All the testimonies are younger or nearing this time frame. Where are the old, hanging in there, leaders. Bob Davies is new too) Anyway one psychiatrist in the 50s had some gay friends she hung out with, but went to work and some of her colleagues talked about the decease of being gay. She had paid little attention before and generally agreed with the process of the theory of the day. BUT, she now was hanging out with a group of gays, just happened that way and as she continued their friendships she still heard from her colleagues from time to time concerning gays and it began to dawn on her that these friends of hers seemed perfectly normal well adjusted people in every way. This struck her as very strange for all, each and every gay was suppose to be sick and degenerate human being that almost always needed as much as to be locked up. Well, this arose her pioneering curiosity to research her friends based on scientific methods of controls. This went on for many years and grew and other saw her work and added to it and this is where it all began that today you have such report that exonerate gays of any evil immoral lifestyle. They just are not the guilt ridden people of the testimonies I have read so far. Seems like 30 or 40 testimonies of ex-gay leaders in the last 4 weeks, not counting the reports I read from very credible researchers saying the exact same thing.
If ex-gays are right that gays are generally horrible miserable people all their life before ex-gays they why do facts show most gay just aren't these miserable people. That they can handle discrimination by the their churches because they are gay. I know a very large number of gays and they don't have any life the resembles these ex-gay leaders at all. What example are you ex-gay leaders giving us anyway? Yes, many gays are unhappy, but for the very same normal reason straight are unhappy. Now just how happy can people feel when they are persecuted so strongly? For 700 years the Church persecuted gays. Because it hurts to be persecuted and told Jesus can't save you because you first must turn straight and being gay is the most evil sin around is not grounds for one to be in good spirits. Persecution is horrible. When Germany gassed the Jews did this make being a Jew sin because they were quite miserable? Christians have been persecuted and still are in some places and soon will be here. Does this make being a Christian sin because of the misery they feel. Yes, Christians do feel very miserable when persecuted. The fact is many Christian have not gotten to the point or for a million reason don't know how to live by faith during persecution times. Today, just look at you, a few e-mail message which is meant to help you know Jesus better is taken as persecution and you immediately threaten me. What are you going to do when real persecution comes?
Now, many gays are quite happy. Many are lonely, I have personally heard from tons of straights Christians that are extremely miserable, many lonely straights. Life is interesting you go trough phases. Asked most pastors and other ministers and they will tell you of great depression while a Christian. TBN's Jan Crouch just loves to tell about her TBN days of extreme even suicidal depression period. God takes his people on a journey and often that is in the valley. Mountain tops are a short period for most Christians. Some Christian can live with just about any condition and remain at peace. These condition aren't a defining condition that straight or gay is sin. It only says we go through hard times and we are destined to straight out of the Garden to a ground that has been cursed by God a curse that has not yet been removed. Straight to relationships that has the curse from God that woman will be subject to man and non-Garden condition. yes, all humans will have a tough life at times. There is a season, why don't you associate the Word of God in its whole to all circumstances?
The Church for 700 years has projected its anti-gay doctrine to the world, yes many gay are directly effected by this ungodly doctrine which is full of lies. I often say you can't undo my walk. This means I have walked with Jesus for nearly 24 years and things has happened. Hundreds has prophesied over me particularly. For 15 years I was in the closet to the church, but went to church every time it met (Assemblies of God) with my lover at my side. I had not one bit of trouble and was often told how God was seen in me and with me. Straights flocked to me at work (employees too, but while I was working outside people came to me) and spent hours talking to me about God and saying how they since God in me. Many miracles and healings and so much more. In certain circumstances where is a common expectation that God would move a Christian into the highest place of authority possible for that kind of place, I argued to God saying no let get through this time and go on with my life, nevertheless your will be done and right away even with me trying to avoid the promotion there I was at the top though for a short time because I was soon finished. Have you ever been told in the USA that if you preached Jesus as the Christ that you'd be sent to prison by someone that had pen in hand ready to sign the papers to do it? Then that same day God sent a pastor to me to tell me agree with that person while I am in the way of that person the I will give you authority over such people.
I can go on and on and on, this says nothing for my personally intimate walk personally with Jesus. I don't know your condition, but Jesus to me seems he is in the same room with me and inside me at the same time. He laughs with me and he cries concerning Christians. He has put a picture in front of my eyes which I am suppose to try to explain to Christians. This is just the tip of the iceberg that I am telling you, not to boast, but that you may try to get a glimpse of gays just don't fit the tiny niche ex-gays tries to force them into.
Have you been in a straight camp meeting with that old time religion singing. I have been in many. The Spirit is so sweet. Have you felt God in worship services? I have been to many denominations over the years and not just passing through. I am out of the Assemblies of God but was sent as supervisor in the care giving field for 5 years to various Christian churches including Catholics. I don't know what the member felt as the preachers preached, but the Word flooded into my very sole even in the deadest churches I've been in I was filled as the Word was preached. Well in gay churches the Spirit flows to and how sweet that Spirit is when gay Christian familiar with camp meeting singing start sing at a gay Christian potluck. How do you explain to those clients you have concerning me and these other Christian gays. Do you tell them we are deluded? We deceive ourselves? What do you tell them? Do you let them ask? Do you tell they there are gay Christian that are just fine and God is just fine with them? Something has to give. Who is deceived? Why won't Jesus tell us it is sin? Why does Jesus lead us to answers that sets us free? Why does Jesus bless our life with our lover? When we are single why does Jesus hear our prayers for a lover and gives us one? I have heard many a straight Christian testimony on praying to be married and the extremes God goes to get them a wife or husband in the most intimate caring loving fashion of a Heavenly Father.
I have a lover of 7 years now. He told me he knew he'd meet someone to make it short me. The distance he came and the conditions that got us together is quite amazing. God has done many things and now he has finished the Bible twice and reading other material relating to studying it. Even my faith was lacking to expect him to actually read the Bible. But even though he hasn't yet made that commitment to Jesus God has done so many remarkable things for our family life together. There just plain no room to question God's presence in our relationship. That is not at all talking about my ministry on TV and the internet. They have talked about me on TBN and the then president of the Federal Way station called me several times after I talked at length with their counselors. He stated to me he has gay friends and thought highly of them and that he himself had no problem with the issue, though he knew Paul and Jan had a different view. He told his line was always open to me. This was after I sent Christians viewing my program to their counseling lines so they can hear how Christian respond to gays. This was just to much for the counselors their to take. The Christian radio station felt the same way.
Tell me if gay was sin should Christian behaved so badly and why. What makes Christian behave so badly? Does the gay demon slip out of the gay and go into them? You must have a way to explain why a otherwise wonderful Christian would act demon possessed when talking to a gay person. Also why would a Huge TV Christian network have not one piece of material to give their counselors concerning if gays called in. But having a preachers condemning gays. I have talked many times asking this question and they just have no answer. I gone over the Bible with some and they were even surprised that that the verse they figured condemned gays when they actually read it were so confused as to where was it condemning gays after all. Referring to Romans here. You see the Bible clearly describes the people of 26-27 in verses 18-25 and 28-32 and these behaviors just aren't gay. Even the sick testimonies even the prostitute one ex-gay leader was and they drug addition some others were and as miserable as they were they were otherwise decent and law-abiding. Many did grow to hate a parent and most never knew God to begin with. None fit Romans. And of course none made gods and became gay after becoming adults. Romans just does not condemn gays. Please don't assume my extremely brief discourse of Romans means that is all I know about the text.
My studies goes a way back into when the Church began to use the verse to condemn gays. I am willing to go face to face on the Bible with anyone you want so long as it is in a pastoral care context. Meaning at the alter of a generally accepted true Christian church and at the altar and that the deacon, elders and congregation are present. It would need to start with the pastor leader everyone to pray in all their faith to get a hold of God on this matter and operating in all the faith you can muster to try to in you feel cast our demons or what every you think is at the root of my gayness, including any manner of preaching to try to show gay is sin. After which I will do likewise calling on God. I am Assemblies of God Pentecostal background so nothing strange should be expected. Then we would go into Q&A.
When I read your material and other ex-gay leaders it just plain does not make since that you would so much support things that are just not true. Therapist's, Christian and secular, behavior modification can not allow truth to reach the ears of its clients. How can you let your clients see the truth about the gay community. It would expose your lies. I speak boldly about this because gay is not sin. Because some gays are pretty bazaar and have very unchristian philosophies doesn't make gay sin and does not reflect gays that are Christian. You do not condemn being straight because most straights in the world are Buddhist or Moslems do you? What about straights that are witches or atheists? What about straight that have 2500 sexual partners and are children's heroes? Does that make straight sin. Does the straight bar scene make straight sin? Does any immoral act by straights make straight sin? So why look at some very visible groups as representatives of gays to prove gay is sin? You have heard of the silent majority? Well most gays are very silent especially those very many with lovers lasting over a span of decades. I have read a number of books that though not easy was able to gather a lot of material about the invisible gays. Since I met my lover I to have sort of disappeared out of the gay community though I come into the living rooms (which in a 3 year period gave me 300,000 phone calls to my phone) weekly with my TV program me and my lover just aren't to be seen. What do you present to your clients about healthy gays?
Note: update. Tonight, I hope you were watching the TV. Gerry Farewell was on with a host of others discussing the gay issues. Like usual the anti-gay side is just so unloving and has a hopeless message that says gays can't know God while the positive like usual in these kind of programs does show love and present fact after fact after fact while the negative side just states gay is sin period. Gerry of course was lying through his teeth. he said he never was against gays in their private lives just their getting on national TV. Well you should know his former days a leader and founder of moral majority.
I watched him many many times. He was as almost everyone should know the most homophobic preacher of them all with Swaggart right behind him for condemning so often on national TV. Anyway I didn't get this other guys name( though I have seen him a few times on TV condemning gays) but he said Exodus has had 10,000 success stories about gays being delivered. Of course those on the side of gays including a prominent psychiatrist new only to well that these success stories are quite bogus.
I personally have read at least 4 very creditable reports that does your follow-up where you left off and they followed your clients on through the years and found your supposed higher success rate is almost non-existent. I have also found church keep passing flyers around of testimonies of ex-gays that have long since return to active gay life and by the way much better Christians for it. Many ex-gay when they fail then fail with God too because they felt so deceived about getting delivered and found it just never happened. God is so good he does recapture a good number of these which become set free of their bondage and chains placed on them by the church and ex-gay ministries.
I ask you to come clean and start to present the truth. Gays are very well adjusted and Christian with testimonies not unlike any straight Christian. Invite gay Christians to give their testimonies so that your clients can hear what God is doing with them. Just because you want to try to be straight doesn't give you a God right to go back and condemn all the gays that are quite healthily and has a good relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Doug Houck again said his ministry helps those that want to change and that those that do not want to change that is just fine. If this was true (because other ex-gay ministries echo these same words) why not try to change the gay behavior to straight without telling them that it is a sin and then show Bible where in your conditioned learned opinion say it's sin. Which in fact counterdicts his statement that leave the others alone thing by saying the others will go to hell without hope in God by showing in his opinion it is sin without recourse to others who have a great deal more education on the Bible than Doug.
Both sides of the issue should be given. Jesus says the truth shall set you free. How can lies set you free. Who are you to decide what your client hears, especially when you allow only ant-gay messages to your clients and for safety measures insure that should they hear to the contrary you have drawn up a discredit to those reports that are positive towards gays. Let the reporters speak for themselves instead of you interpreting them to discredit the authors and researchers.
One last interesting note: God is so good your web sites sponsors uses a name for Episcopalians gays "integrity" online.com. The Episcopal church generally supports gays and have for quite sometime. I get good input on this because one of my best friends is an Episcopalian gay Christian. He attends and participates in all church functions including the vestibules and other active obligations and is known by all that he is gay. He so dearly loves Jesus who hears his prayers. I have known him for nearly 15 years. God has moved in his life visibly many times. I also have lots of material on the proceedings on Episcopalian higharchy of dealing with the fight over the gay issues. The point is when I came to Christ I did not just accept the status quo of Church doctrine on what I knew so personally about being gay. I have seen the facts and heard the Church's lies. Jimmy Swaggart saying gays seek out straights to seduce them to have sex making them gay. Ridiculous ! Do you believe that lie? Fact gays would avoid straight like fleas. Straights you see would kill gays or beat them to a pulp. They would call gays fags etc. Sorry Jimmy is telling lies about gays. Its rare a gay person would make a pass at a straight person. If gay were sin then there would be facts to base it on and if there is the Church is not using them.
I love you with a demonstrable love. Your love isn't in line with Scripture, but you threaten me just because I am gay. I am here for a few e-mail sessions then gone. Out of some 65 ex-gay ministries I have gotten 4 requests to remove names from my list which I sent material out in a less than a month period of time. I have replied asking questions on their concerns to be taken off my list. I have not been out of line. I am not spaming you not advertising products not sending obscene material, for this you threaten me. What I have told you is facts what I have gotten and commented on is testimonies you all have written. Is this so unchristian of me? Should I stand by and quietly listen to your condemnation of me while you are telling not to send more email. I sent copies to AOL & JUNO and some of your providers and have dealt directly concerning my e-mail obligations. What do you want to do Paulk? Do you want to wait for one or two more e-mail runs then I gone except to those that want to reply, which there are some. Or do you want to disobey God as you threaten? Let me know. I am willing to listen to you to see if you will give me permission to finish one or two e-mail runs. I would be curious to see if you have to capability of behaving as a Christian to a person you disagree with. Maybe some day you can get to know and find out I am your brother in Christ after all. I prefer to take up the issue with the Church like the Bible says don't you? Anyway looking forward to your reply.
My Response to second e-mail
On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:12:43 -0800 "paulk" <paulk@integrityonline.com> writes:
Thanks for emailing me back with your concerns about people in Exodus. The reason I asked you to stop sending mail to Exodus leaders is that apparently, some of them have requested to not receive mail from you and you have not abided by their request. For those who haven’t given you this request, then never mind. I wouldn’t mind receiving mail from you since I am interested in your philosophy. I attempted to reach your web site but wasn’t able to. What is the correct address?
As far as why jesus keeps "blessing" you even thought you are gay goes....Exodus never states that one cannot be gay and have accepted the Lord Jesus into your life. Our perspective is that the Bible is clear that any sexual contact outside of the male/female marital bond is sin. Scripture is clear on these points. Please show me any place within the context of the Bible that provision is made for sexual expression outside of this perameter. Believe me, I struggled with this for a long time before coming out of homosexuality in 1987.
Thanks.
John Paulk
^i^ My web site is http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/9647 . You see you are contradicting yourself when you say, because according to you I am living in sin. People that believe gays is sin never want facts and never want to compare actual life to the Bible. Your stand against gays is based as simple as marriage???? Haven't you at all learned the Bible for the most part addresses the largest group of people. Didn't you know that when people speak they speak to the majority as base for their general message. The Bible simply won't address every walk of life. You can read the Bible and fit right in without this stupid idea that the Bible must say "gay marriage". It just doesn't work that way. However, God speaks very clearly to gays as they read HIS WORD. You say the scripture is clear on marriage. Who told you it meant 100% straight? GOD did not, Jesus did not, but the Church did. Gays don't have the problems of figuring out that their lover relationship is a marriage to God. Many straights that are not married are indeed married in God's sight. The Bible is a living Word and able to minister to everyone. This is not to say like so often the case with homophobic Christians (any Christian that believes the Bible says gay is sin) that then why not murders for Christ, or some other stupid thing to represent other living in real sin as a comparison to gays. The facts stand out about these real sins, but when you check out the facts about gays there just is no similarity. Gays live like straights not druggies or mobsters, or prostitutes, or any other common sins. When you discover the common sins then you are on your way to truth. Gays are people and sin like straights. When straights sin this does not make straight sin and it doesn't make marriage sin either. It is really ignorant to make a common sin such as to condemn straights and so the same with gays. Because the Church does not permit gays to marry does not make gay sin. Besides what about the many many pastors marrying gays at their church behind closed doors. I am sure you heard about this. It happens so frequently. Then you have the gay churches marrying gays. So many gays marry under the CHURCH. You say legally they can't marry. So then because of a secular law gays are banned from marriage. Why can't gays marry? Lets go back 700 years and see. The catholic church developed the anti-gay Church doctrine which was also adopted by the Protestants with in 200 years. Prior to this you could not find countries with laws against gays, but by the 14th century nearly all countries had laws against gay there in Europe. But Jesus came 2000 years ago. Did the Church forget about gays for a 1300 year period and if someone in the Church stood up and condemned gays they were put down by the Church for the most part.
^i^ Lets go to the Garden, since many homophobic Christian run to the Garden to say Adam and Steve condemnation joke.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (KJV)
Matt 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (KJV)
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. (KJV)
^i^ There is one other Gospel with the same. In case you can't read it says there is just one reason to leave parents. This will make almost every Christian living in sin if you took it literally. Most get jobs, go to school, sow wild oats before getting married and all after leaving parents.
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; (KJV)
6763 tsela` (tsay-law'); or (feminine) tsal` ah (tsal-aw'); from 6760; a rib (as curved), literally (of the body) or figuratively (of a door, i.e. leaf); hence, a side, literally (of a person) or figuratively (of an object or the sky, i.e. quarter); architecturally, a (especially floor or ceiling) timber or plank (single or collective, i.e. a flooring):
KJV-- beam, board, chamber, corner, leaf, plank, rib, side (chamber).
^i^ I don't know what you know about this RIB, but I found that when you really get into searching deep into the orignal specific meaning you come up with a comparison of a modern word. It means a CELL from that RIB. The means that GOD's Glory is Great for HE designed in ever factor of human genetics when HE made ADAM. Whether you like to accept the fact that comes from this is a matter of accepting truth or fiction. The 10% gay factor is constant because GOD planned it that way in ADAM. I am not just spout off in a whim. In case you don't know it I am close to God and HE does in fact teach me a thing or two thru the years. Still, the facts are easy to see, the Garden just does not condemn gays. Those that use the Garden do so usually while running away from the facts about the other verses that are so clearly not about gays. If you or any one in the Church uses the Marriage doctrine to condemn gays then let me tell you something. And this is in the Lord and with His permission. He counts the intended sin to the charge of that person who is condemning, with a catch. The full charge goes onto the CHURCH's account which will come due very soon.
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (ASV)
^i^ This is part of a time frame that has 3 major components. The Witnesses that breaks the power of the Church 1260 days. The maximum wait that Christians have to reach to be Raptured 1335 days and it starts the same time as the 1260 days, and satan's man Antichrist rule 1290 days from the end which laps into the last 30 days of the 1260 days. When ever you hear gays aren't married or can't be married so live in sin automatically falling into fornication or anything called out of marriage bounds. The homophobic Church likes this idea because they don't have to deal with any verse gays can't marry in their minds so live in sin. It is quite the cop out to say "....Exodus never states that one cannot be gay and have accepted the Lord Jesus into your life." Because the forked tongue principle " Our perspective is that the Bible is clear that any sexual contact outside of the male/female marital bond is sin." So where is the hope? What hope do you give. You force the you must change and be straight of never have sex again. This is not Bible preaching at all. Another thing the Blessings I was showing does not happen to those living in the kind of sin the Church means. The Church means gay is just about as evil as anyone can get. All other kinds of sin are treated much more lightly than gays. So this idea of a gay can be blessed is fruitless dreams. You have to accept some sort of explanation and it certainly not the Bible's then this is a simple way to explain gays that are blessed by God and that is "....Exodus never states that one cannot be gay and have accepted the Lord Jesus into your life." See you don't have to explain anything to yourself this way. My point to go into the blessings is to get to explain why and you won't. I say at least a hundred prophets prophesied over me in the Assemblies of God fashion. I say AOG because you must condemn their way, because it is based in their way of understanding the Holy Spirit's operations. Your argument is with them and the straight prophets are based in this kind of faith. It is not my invented faith that made this happen, but in real life they called me out and this means no accident or mistakes, especially when averaged out over the hundred plus times maybe twice that many. If I were so much living in sin then why did the prophet prophesy good tidings and details of my call confirming to me what God had shown me already which is a test in itself of the message presented. Why the many pastor so inclined to confide in me acknowledging God in me by his spirit baring witness with mine. Tell me do unrepented murderers receive this from God? Do down and out drug addicts? Do anyone living in such as the Church says abject sin receive such prophesies and confidences of pastors? Do people living in open sin looked to God and say Jesus I call on your name and as the last word is spoken a reply of greeting that usually says "This is the Lord Jesus Christ". I don't think I am special, but Jesus responds this way every time to me. I don't get it do you? Please explain to me why someone living in sin that the Church is forever condemning with such zeal. The Christian coalition (WOW excuse me, I just learned I can right click on a misspelled word and instantly correct it. I have been clicking the spell checker, neat) for instance list just a few categories for to show the candidates views. It always has homosexuals as one category. In the 1st 3 years when I kept records of phone calls the 300,000 calls I got 75% anti-gay did not indicate that gay was a sin that God would bless the person so richly. But you simple so easily that gays can be saved and blessed? Why should anyone give up sin then if they can be so blessed? Hey, maybe for awhile as one learns from God the ropes of their new life in Jesus, but 24 years? I guest I am stupid and never learns huh, and so God continues to bless. Why does GOD bless completely obviously helping the relationship. Even working out the nity gritty of down right sex. You know just like when straights have problems adjusting into their routines. If you ask God helps, Jesus is there at every point. Every aspect of the relationship Jesus is there to help. Granted sometimes not as I wanted, but it is always to the good when I see the final results.
Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angels
Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.
Deut 23:17 don’t be a temple prostitute
IKing 14:24 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 15:12 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 22:46 rarely used temple prostitute
II Ki 23:7 rarely used temple prostitute
Lev 18:22 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships
Lev 20:13 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships
Rom 1:27-28 Should be 18-32. adults turned from God, God changed them, results visible evil behavior
1 Cor 6:9 call boy and temple prostitute, 1950 original Greek removed, meant masturbation before 1850
1 Tim 1:10 temple prostitute
Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientation
^i^ These are the places you must answer. Do they condemn gays? You do not answer the sin question by playing the marriage game. You first must view the picture in its completeness. The Church use these as proof text to condemn gays. Anything else just applies to every human and no an orientation. If you want to apply marriage rules. This is what Jesus' soon to be Apostles said.
Matt 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. (KJV)
^i^ The rules are to hard to marry for straights unless you think the Apostles didn't know what they were saying. By the way verse 11-12 talk about gays in a positive way. If you know your history eunuchs were consider all gay or most of them were gay. I do have some ancient writing on this.
The Kama Sutra: Part II Chapter 9
CHAPTER IX
OF THE AUPARISHTAKA OR MOUTH CONGRESS
THERE are two kinds of eunuchs, those that are disguised as males, and those that are disguised as females. Eunuchs disguised as females imitate their dress, speech, gestures, tenderness, timidity, simplicity, softness and bashfulness. The acts that are done on the jaghana or middle parts of women, are done in the mouths of these eunuchs, and this is called Auparishtaka These eunuchs derive their imaginable pleasure, and their livelihood from this kind of congress, and they lead the life of courtesans. So much concerning eunuchs disguised as females.
Eunuchs disguised as males keep their desires secret, and when they wish to do anything they lead the life of shampooers. Under the pretence of shampooing, a eunuch of this kind embraces and draws towards himself the thighs of the man whom he is shampooing, and after this he touches the joints of his thighs and his jaghana, or central portions of his body. Then, if he finds the lingam of the man erect, he presses it with his hands and chaffs him for getting into that state. If after this, and after knowing his intention, the man does not tell the eunuch to proceed, then the latter does it of his own accord and begins the congress. If however he is ordered by the man to do it, then he disputes with him, and only consents at last with difficulty.
^i^ This is very old dating to Jesus and before. There is more, but to my point eunuchs were considered gays and Jesus knew it as well as the common folk he addressed concerning eunuchs. And what's more Jesus said it isn't easy for most to accept this teaching. So if you or most have a ready answer your first thought should be they or you must be wrong. For homophobic Christians MARRIAGE is a scapegoat to condemn gays. It has nothing to do with gay life and GOD. Those that won't listen miss wonderful testimonies and lose many God sent ministers. Besides cause a great deal harm to innocent people.
^i^
It is so very common that demand is made to show exactly a text within the Bible to console the homophobic especially having the ulterior motive to mock the gay with hard to find and vague interpretation on controversial subjects thereby appearing to win the issue. Let me tell you what this kind of person wins. Proof of ignorance. Like you telling me about marriage perimeters. You feel I can never find a place that say God allows gay marriage and so you declare your righteousness and successful dominance over who you deem your foe. You, however, in fact stated your struggles and willingness perhaps to listen. I shouldn't have to remind you I am not here to prove anything. God told me to tell His people and its up to His people to deal with it. At a point of time the cup will reach the brim and God will move, but just before that He sends messengers to warn His people. I come to you to tell you and you don't have to accept what I say. I would advise you to because of the full cup principle will take place and it will be to late to take advantage of an early warning. The marriage issue is a vague one. It speaks to the vast majority of people and does not say at any point through the Word of God that " male/female" clause is absolute. The homophobic Christians assume this. The issues at hand are the specific usage of Bible words to mean the modern equivalent of gays. Like "sodomite" English equivalent according to the homophobic Church to homosexual. I f you find it really means "temple prostitute" then that renders the word removed from condemning gays, period. The fact is 7 of the 13 verses use to directly be interpreted to mean homosexual actually means "temple prostitute". This being so means the remaining 6 verses become suspect and demand intense research. We are talking about 600 million people, certainly a worthy number to sacrifice enough time to learn the truth. Jude and Genesis don't represent gays. Genesis sexually is about gang rape with the intent to murder the victim. Jude refers to Genesis. Two more verses are very easy to show can't be talking about gays. That’s down to 4. Romans should be incredibly easy to render not talking about gays. Gays do not behave as 18-25 or 28-32. When apply 26-27 you find it is adult straights that made gods as adult and had straight sex enjoying it intensely before God changing then so they would have gay sex as it were. This is not gay behavior either. What ever one comes up with in Romans it just does not say gay is sin. Down to 3. Lev. Has so much rich information supplied. The fertility god Molech, what Egypt & Canaan did, the womankind was sexual immoral not a wife and abomination supports act done in worshipping other gods. It does not compare a marriage with a gay couple. Where are the verses that condemn gays? Then you go to Adam and Steve jokes to condemn. It that Christians searching for truth in God's Word? All 13 verses used to condemn gays falls outside any kind of marriage perimeter. Why can't the homophobic Church find verses that associates gay marriages so they can condemn it? The closest to this is 1 Cor 6:9 in "catamite" This situation was one that included wealthy Corinthians paying a very large sum of money to a call bay to be seen as like a permanent lover. This is very much an act of prostitution and so the closest comparison still is as far as east is from west or black is to white.Believe me, I struggled with this for a long time before coming out of homosexuality in 1987.
Taking Taking off the Mask
by John Paulk Mask
My parents divorced when I was five. My dad took my sister and me to a park, knelt down beside us, and told us good-bye. For the rest of my childhood, I lived with a continuous insecurity that the people I loved would always walk out of my life.
^i^ Yes, you sure did struggle with it a long time. This does not make gay sin. Have you ever calculated the number of straights that experienced what you did as a child. I bet you haven't. If a miserable childhood is a factor in "choosing to be gay" then explain why so many gays had good childhoods. Why so many straights never became gay. Why so many straights look for their father or mother in their spouse? How come when I look back into my childhood I did not have any peticular problems. Everybody has problems, but I never had anything in comparison to every ex-gay leader and founder's testimony I have read including yours. Every one of you were sorry pathetic human beings (no offense intended, but only a point to make). I have read so many my head is spending and I have taken the time to go step by step through the testimonies to write about them. I don't know if you ever took time to read through over forty ex-gay leaders testimonies, but you should if you haven't. I already knew about the testimonies of ex-gays and had reports and for over 15 years knew ex-gays did not have normal testimonies. Don't get me wrong they are very normal for the conditions you went through, you just twisted it to the point that it meant gay is sin to you. Had you realized that lot of varieties of people have experienced poor childhoods. You had the extra dilemma of being gay (bisexual) and had a failure distinguish between real and imagined problems and their solutions. To some degree we all experience this, but some to a greater degree. In 1987, people ( not to intend judgement but if so so be it) had a great deal of resources. In Riverside Calif. There were NO resources while I lived their growing up. Gays were never a topic. I knew I was gay for lack of another word retrospectively speaking. There were no roll models or gay organizations or TV ads or anything. The closest word to relate to gay was "pervert" and so a gay child had no way to know they were gay because this word pervert was so bad and did not relate to the feelings inside. Later, this word was associated to homosexuals and by then you knew that for lack of better words was what you were. What I am telling is gays in my day had little positive support growing up on being gay. My point is here is an idea situation for one to really live miserable like the ex-gay leaders describe for their lives here in recent times with all the support and information. Yet, like in my case it had very little effect on my attitude towards life. Beyond the normal adolescent desire to date or sexual development and associating relating to girls as extremely shy and somewhat confused on why peers had this heavy chest feeling (horny) around girls, life was pretty normal for me. I mean, I can't for the life of me figure out what was you guys problems. I like boy toys, many ex-gay leaders like girl toys, so if you are inclined to like girl toy gay is sin? I was good in sports and so what many straight men were extremely bad in sports and liked very few boy toys. Another abnormal imbalance in the ex-gay leader world is going to Catholic schools. Hey, many straights went to them and are not gay, but still on average a very large number of these leaders went to Catholic schools. This adds a considerable guilt trip. One plus one always equals two you know. So why didn't you and the other exes figure out you had a severe case and simply do not represent the gay community. Now why didn't you figure out that these gays ( out of balance in numbers are bisexuals ) who never sought positive source in the current time frame and went straight to homophobic pastors after getting saved who directed them to ex-gay ministries filled with people that had abnormal responses to life in their childhoods like theirs was? Many gays really had bad childhoods and were especially condemned and rejected by home and church especially those that it was impossible to hide their gayness because of their mannerisms. Why didn't they see the need to become ex-gay? If gay is sin then its sin and there is no excuse and there would be a large number of conformable deliverances. Just like all the other sins. But the deliverances are in question at every turn. I know a ex-gay leader can't readily accept the low numbers of successful ex-gays, but that has no bearing on the facts. Too many ex-gays find gay is not sin, too many ex-gay ministers find gay is not sin. Too many ex-gay leaders are not ex-gay but are bisexuals living their straight side. This misrepresents ex-gays. Fact bisexual marry and continue having sex all too often and this is used to say can be delivered. Too many ex-gays are forced to lived celibate lives. This is not God's intention at all. First it is doctrines of devils to deny marriage, then Paul tells us that if a strong straight Christian marriage the man and wife decide to fast and pray for a season that they should cut it as short as possible and get back together and have sex or satan may temp them. Meaning that even the best of Christian that are the closest to God would be at risk of being tempted to have sex with someone that is not their wife. If it is so hard, for what you call the only acceptable marriage, for these to not have sex what are you doing forbidding gays to marry? Are they super human? WOW they really need to change and be straight so they can marry so satan won't tempt them. Am I foolish here? Did Paul over exaggerate? Do you know John Gay? He is a straight man that helped with generating a web page for ex-gays. I mentioned in commenting on a testimony that here is something interesting someone with the last name Gays and part of the title is Stonewall and part of the address is integrity the name of gay Episcopalians. He wrote me saying it just happens to be his last name so what and they chose stonewall on purpose to get peoples attention and draw them to ex-gay web site. The fact of course is these all are positive gay usuages and ex-gay can't magically change them to come against gays by reversing or twisting or attention getting words. Anyhow, this John gay had girl friend problems, he didn't elaborate, and chose to abstain from sex and has for ten years. The point here some people chose to abstain ( I am guessing he has a sick reason, at least not in the norm) from having sex. No problem some people can even get help from God here and for many reasons. However, for someone to preach gays needs to abstain or they live in sin is ungodly. This means that 600 million people who most would not want to stop having sex, just like most straights would not like to stop, are told to stop or be against the will of God. This just is not Bible and not from the Lord. Tell me why can you have sex with your wife but a gay person can't have sex with their lover? This isn't joggling justification. If it were facts would loom ever so largely and obviously consequences would be ever so present. Yet, in gay family life goes on just like in straight families. Facts so clear that gays aren't the problem the Church wishes they would be. The Jimmy Swaggarts has to lie and say gays seduce straights to reproduce their kind. Comparison to sex with animals preached so often. Lie after lie taught about gays. Is it really a gov't conspiracy to promote the sin of homosexuality? Is AIDS really a punishment from God to gay sin? Is the American Psychological Assoc. really wrong? The APA really promoting unfound scientific research? Have you studied the background? I have. I know where the very beginning, the very actual story where research began that found gays have a clean bill of health. Previously it was taught to be a disease until one woman began studying her gay friends back in the 50s and found they did not fit what she and her peers believed about gays. So when you read the reports that try to discount positive studies just know there is the real story they aren't telling you. When you "came out of homosexuality"(by the way you weren't gay either) did you read this woman's story? Is it really sin getting worse in the world because the voting is getting closer to support gays each election? When blacks got closer to equal rights was it a sign that sin was growing worse? When women got the vote was that a sigh sin grew worst as we approach the return of Jesus Christ? Even though we approach this Day doesn't mean God isn't working to bring respect to those who have been denied it for so long. Ez 34 God gave me soon after I came to Christ. This is God's rendering of the Church and gays. It sums up the history of the last 700 years of treatment towards gay by the Church. It has much significance as well to the Last Days Church.
^i^ I still can't figure out how you think gays can come to Christ and be blessed and the next sentence say the only way is male/female marriage. Don't you think that is kind of casting truth to the wind? Please give me some questions about my walk, I'd like to find out what you want to know that may help you remain convinced gay is sin. Certainly you should know what to ask to dig into a gay person life, wouldn't you, to find that common thread to show gay is sin?
Secure in My Feminine Identity
by Anne Paulk
I
grew up as a classic tomboy, mostly playing cowboys and Indians or cops and robbers. When I was about four-years old, an event happened which profoundly shook my inner security. A teenage boy approached me sexually, then warned me not to tell my parents. I never said a word, fearful that we'd both get into big trouble. This silence left me to reap a lot of self-inflicted pain, and the whole incident only reinforced my tomboy image. I didn't feel protected or valued as a girl.^i^ On and on it goes. Ex-gay leader and founder after ex-gay leader and founder. Even a wife of an ex-gay leader had a horrible childhood and she spent 12 years chasing a gay (actually bisexual) man then spent the next 10 years in a very troubled marriage with him. Your wife to has such a horrible past. Some gays and bisexuals do have pretty bad childhoods, but most have regular lives and they learn to deal with the Church's doctrine against them and turn out very well. When I confronted L.I.F.E. ex-gay ministry it's leader was straight and his wife was a really weird "ex-gay". If ex-gays were of God then there would be testimonies like you find in PFLAG. I have read many books by parents of gay children and how they came to terms with the gay issue. It's always remarkable and their attitudes so caring for all and for themselves as well. It's like the difference between night and day for delivered homophobes and "delivered" gays (bisexuals). Your wife, which I will be responding to later should have spent a great deal of time with lesbians that had similar problems as a child as well as straight women raped who never turned gay. I have talked with many lesbians and read material from them. It sure is a different story than ex-gays produce. They really had it bad too, but they dealt with it as healthy people would. I don't like telling you that you are a sick man. I mean this in that you needed counseling. You were dealing with your growing up life inappropriately and proper counseling could have helped changed your whole outlook on your life. NOW, you will have to be dealing with this issue for quite sometime. You may feel comfortable at times simply because of time, but their are 600 million gays and the Church so adamant against gays that this issue will be on the front burners until resolve occurs. Gay is not sin and Jesus will and is doing something about it. I am with you for this moment, someone else in their way will come , then someone after that. The DAY is about to come when political means won't be the general way gays fight for truth. God has set a date which will soon come when the Church will feel the brunt of God's wrath toward the injustice towards His innocent people at the hands of His people.
Ezek 34:17-20
17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. 18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. (KJV)
^i^ This entire chapter is a summary of the treatment of the Church towards gays and what God intends to do about it. Many minorities feel akin to this chapter as well the Church just has not done well with minorities. (Though some minority are quite large.). Another text gays are akin to:
Jer 23:2-4
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. (KJV)
^i^ Gays were scattered 700 years ago and in 1967,68,69 the gathering back began in the 3 segments of classes. First the Catholics in 67' as Dignity, then the Protestants in 68' in MCC, and in 69' the secular movement began in earnest. The gay movement as it were fits all the criteria for any oppressed group moving with God's help to their proper place in society at the appointed time
I
The Stables Ministries Home of Gays For Jesus TV Programs
Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com