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April 25, 2009 8:06 PM
And conditions for the End Times Church
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 23:14:02 EDT Subject: Romans updated: Saturday, December 18, 2004
I am confused ... I believe God does speak out about a gay lifestyle. I
would like to hear your interpretation of Romans 1:18-32 and how you feel it
applies to the gay lifestyle and being saved.
^i^ Romans 1:26-27 is a very common text use by many to condemn gays. The above person at least list the entire context as Romans 1:18-32.
Rom 1:18-32
18
For
the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath
shewed
it unto them.
20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and
Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were
thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was
darkened.
22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an
image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and
fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own
hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature
more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did
change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their
lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and
receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them
over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness,
maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil
things, disobedient to parents,
31
Without
understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural
affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy
of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
(KJV)
Straight Christian adults turned from GOD to gods (fertility god
specifically) God then allowed
them to join the temple’s of these gods
^i^ Please read carefully as it is so very simple to see that "THEY" above have a great deal of description. These can never be children, they must be adults. When you decide to select a group of people and say they are the people God is condemning (through Paul here) you just cannot use your own feelings or judgments or predispositions or conditionings. Especially as a Christian you must desire truth. So many has said that 26-27 proves gay is sin. Yet with easy reading we see a very detailed behavior described. When you have 630 million gays to observe and interview you can get a really good base to work from as to comparative behavior. Verses 18-23 explain people that have become adults. It explains while growing up they were taught about God and so knew God, but on reaching adulthood and began making adult decisions they decided to carve gods out of wood and stone and worship them. We know this because of verses like:
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues
yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship
devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which
neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (KJV)
Isa 44:15 Then shall it be for a man to
burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he
kindleth
it, and baketh bread; yea, he
maketh
a god, and worshippeth it; he
maketh
it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. (KJV)
^i^ You can find many verses that shows that adults carve gods to worship. A simple search on "wood and stone" gets you many verses through out the Bible that deals with the condition of "23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things". And none uses any kind of reference to gay people. So we find a first step are the 630 million gays making gods according to the detailed explanation of the Bible? Researching the entire Bible on people that make gods none describe children only adults. If you use the Bible to prove something you just can't insert foreign information it must be confirmed as many as 3 times in God's Word. Yes, you can go into the world and find gays carving gods, but it is directly associated with the culture of the people of that country or cult and the gods that country or culture. The facts also will show that these gods are from the predominately straight population wherein some gays also believe. I am an Assemblies of God man, fact! Does this make the AOGs founded by gays or governed by gays? Is most AOG pastors and deacons gay? No, just some members are gays that believe very similar to Assemblies of God doctrine of faith.
^i^ The point I am trying to make is simple. Rom. 18-23 clearly describes adults who knew God then made gods with their hands to worship turning from God. I bet you cannot find easily any gays that do this behavior. The emphasis on adults is also very important and if they knew God they were Christians, as I will cover in a moment.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of
their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies
between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God
into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is
blessed for ever. Amen.
^i^ The above now sums up 18-23 by explaining again in 24-25 that these adults changed (turned from God) what they were taught about God and instead worshipped their own gods (history tells us these weren't newly invented gods at random by those that happened to turn from God, but that these gods were well established gods and goddesses and can be studied in detail in the Bible and the historical records). Now for the first time God gave them up to uncleanness in verse 24. This is the highlight of the point in time that if Rom. 18-32 were talking about gays those straights would have turned gay. Up to these point they had become adults then turned from God to gods so God (if this were about gays) made them gay in verse 24-25. Verse 24-25 is transition from straight to gay as would those that think verse 26-27 is talking about gays. The real life facts are 630 million strong. When do gays become gay? If the Bible really talks about people and groups then you must believe the Bible which in detail describes who it is talking about. You can't say this means gays because it sounds like its talking about gays. You have to investigate, after all isn't that what Christians want more than anything else IS TRUTH? How can you say these verses talks about gays when it does not describe gays? FACT, many gays never turn from GOD. Many accepted Jesus as children and they just don’t turn away from him. FACT, gays were gay way before they were adults. Even though much scientific fact and psychological research shows gay born gay and it is normal for 10% of the population (the latest just was announced last week that gay was not a mental disorder) you still miss the most important FACTS of all. Gays themselves. 630 million of them, so you can find some that can confirm that gays were always gay and you would be hard pressed to find any that would say they recently became gay. Struggling with being gay does not make it a sin. Many gays struggle with it because everywhere they turn around its being condemned especially by the Church that is suppose to show Jesus' love.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their
women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And
likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their
lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and
receiving in themselves that recompence of their error
which was meet.
^i^ These 2 verses are the cornerstone of Christians that believe gay is sin hinges on. So what do they mean? For straights the only thing natural is straight sex, so how can you depend on a meaning from straights. The really great thing is God's Word is complete and can be researched for correct meaning. So let’s start:
5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos');
from 5449; "physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare
5591.
5449 phusis (foo'-sis);
from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural
production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native
disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-])
kind, nature ([-al]).
^i^ You see “natural &
nature " did not mean the same as we often define it today as it did in Paul's
day. We can't adlib our current added meanings form our scientific advancements.
In proper context these 2 words explain 2 things. First (natural) is explaining
that what is being talked about is something that has a solid foundation from
which to grow. It compares seeds and these seeds germinating. This means if you
have an
^i^ So then what does this
mean in 26-27? If we were to for a moment assume it really does mean gay, then
let’s follow the sentence of meaning in an example you can understand. You have
a straight person who has had straight sex in the past and thoroughly enjoyed it
into adulthood. This is a requirement of the text, not an opinion or option of
this, as from verse 18 we knew some FACTS about who "THEY" were and "THEY" were
straight adults not changed to gay yet. Then 26-27 get sexual, if you will, so
here were straights going against their natural state which is straight and
doing, what is claimed by anti-gay folks, gay sex. Well FACT, yes many gay did
have straight sex, but as testimonies shows extensively, they did not enjoy it
and always knew something was missing and that by having straight sex this might
make them straight. Gays actually going against their nature forced by CHURCH treatment
of gays. However, there are unending numbers of gays that never had
straight sex and are completely turned off by it as it seems just as discussing
as a straight person trying to image having gay sex. You also have a good number
of bi-sexuals that can go anyway and it is not my
place to speak for them concerning if that is sin or not. I have not seen any
using the WORD to point out what it says. It appears they just accept " gay is not sin" studies to fit themselves. Bi-sexuals aren't gay so if you relate their behavior to gays
you have missed the boat in finding truth about gays and the Bible. The Church
loves the bi-sexual because they easily live straight lives and make good
testimonies to condemn gays by showing gays can change. The problem though is
they are still bisexual and at some point their instinct will demand action on
it. So 26-27 can only be talking about straights doing strange sexual things
with each other. Another FACT about gays, gays generally seek a long term loving
caring relationship just like straights. Many straights do some pretty wild
things sowing their oats as they grow up and before they settle down and many
never settle down, well the same is true with gays. FACT is 26-27 is talking
about something very distinct going on in which Paul knew about and saw
happening. So what really is going on here? Every pastor has a non-sexual sermon
for these verses that has nothing to do with gays, but can turn around and use
it to condemn gays at will with it the very next sermom.
But what went on during Paul's speaking and writing of these verses. Paul toured
fertility temple and saw a statue of the unknown god at one point of his
ministry in
Acts 17:23 For
as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this
inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. (KJV)
He said I will tell you who this god is and proceeded to preach Jesus. Historians teach us that Paul toured a fertility temple that had over 1000 prostitutes and the Bible tells us that most of these religions were fertility cults. The Bible historians teach us that orgies were common practice in these temples. They also tell us about male temple prostitutes who were considered sacred in those temples. There was no loving caring relationship in consideration, but just act to their gods or goddesses. When you learn the FACTS about Bible events then you can better understand what the Bible is talking about. It is not talking about gays. There is no description of gay in the entire text. The “burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly” is not what your parent do in bed and it is not what you do with your boyfriend or girlfriend. Even in the most directionally non-motivated to find a husband and wife “burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly” is not applicable as 69% of single Christians have sex on their first dates (Josh MacDowell).
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God
gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
^i^ Now here in another clincher verse above. God precisely points out that HE did something that can be visible and non-sexual to all lookers on. It again points out that these "THEY" people did not want GOD at all. FACT a very large number of gays are Christians attending every Christian denomination and since 1967 were able to meet openly in gay Christian church of their own with ministers that were ordain by every Christian denomination. "reprobate mind"? You must show the facts on this in gays. The FACTS are that gay is not a disease or a mental disorder. I hear a lot of Christian reject study results, which is the official American standard of psychiatrists. I will hopefully have something on this later. Yet, many Christians toss out these studies because of the 700-year teaching of the Church that gay is sin and nothing anyone shows them will convince them otherwise. But there is more as God through Paul tells us a long list of sins that have nothing to do with sex in which are clearly visible to see with your own eyes, as it can't be hidden. Below lists behaviors that if it were talking about gays you can go out a look with your own eyes as there are around 630 million gays so it would be easy to locate some to evaluate for non-sexual behavior. Generally gays are employers best employees and gay stand out in their families as pillars holding them together in time of needs. The health care system would crash if gays left it. And this goes on and on, gays are not the evil described below:
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness,
covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity;
whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors
of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable,
unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such
things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that
do them. (KJV)
^i^ In my 50 plus years of
life I have not seen any gays so evil. These verses aren't describing your
relatively common varieties of the sins above or else every Christian would go
to hell with no hope of escape. Yet, most of the above you just can't find in
the general public. This list does not give you the privilege to pick and
choose. It is explaining that each an every person of 18-32 will behave extreme
wickedly in plain view without regards to anyone's feelings. God is very careful
to make His Word clear so HIS people should not condemn the innocent. But the
Church seems to always abuse God's Word. The nation of
Search on hearken in Lev.(KJV)
Lev 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these
commandments; (KJV) Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto
me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. (KJV) Lev 26:21 And
if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven
times more plagues upon you according to your sins. (KJV) Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk
contrary unto me; (KJV)
^i^ We are in the 4th level of these 4 verses. Please read the entire 26th chapter.
Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river,
lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by
him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time.
When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will
be completed." (NIV)
^i^ Daniel says 1260 are for the breaking of the Church's power. It is plain with the many places who God's people Daniel is talking about as the angel explains the future to him. It also says satan has 1290 days and Christians have 1335 days. We know the 2 witnesses starts at the beginning of the TRIB and the satan has the end of it as his man anit-christ is world dictator. This overlaps the 2 witnesses by 30 days the time for him to kill them. The Church's power being broken also begins at the start of the TRIB and Christians see the 2 witnesses killed then they have as much as 75 more days to complete the 1335 days they must get through. God tells us that even the elect would perish if he did not cut that time short. This 30 day overlap and the remaining 75 days is quite a toll on Christians even the very faithful as the mark is enforced at some point when anti-christ take power and the statue set in operation, which will seem to be alive. All will be directly connected through the Internet as technologies are upgraded into it to make your terminal seem to be the living extension of the statue. That technology exists and is being uploaded now. You will see full operation in email and chat of automatic conversion of languages instantly as you type or speak and will read or hear the same as whoever talks or types back. Technology exists and is mostly installed to affect your mental state. To feel anti-christ's presence if you will. It will also disrupt you and cause havoc with many to do harmful things.
^i^ Just what are the main reasons the Church thinks it won't go thru the TRIB?
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a
great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four
winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (KJV)
1 Cor 15:52-55
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at
the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this
corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to
pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death,
where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)
1Thes 4:13-18 13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which
are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we
believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a
shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead
in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so
shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these
words. (KJV)
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my
reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (KJV)
^i^ Some think there is a GOD specific trumpet to explain a special trumpet to bring on the Rapture an 8th if you will. Actually there are 7 trumpets when concerning a "last trumpet" of 1 Cor 15:52's " at the last trump".
sounded (KJV)
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there
followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth:
and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
(KJV)
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it
were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third
part of the sea became blood; (KJV)
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from
heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the
rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; (KJV)
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was
smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as
the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of
it, and the night likewise. (KJV)
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a
star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the
bottomless pit. (KJV)
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard
a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, (KJV)
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in
heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (KJV)
^i^ The 7th is the LAST TRUMPET and the "trumpet" of the verses the Church has loved to say the Rapture happens (Jesus takes "plucks" Christians off the Earth). However is there Bible to tell us this?
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time
of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou
shouldest
give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that
fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy
them which destroy the earth. (KJV)
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in
heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there
were lightnings, and voices, and
thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (KJV)
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the
seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be
finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (KJV)
^i^ The above 3 verses should wake you up to a fact. Three conditions that can only happen at the Rapture take place. All are required, but Rev. 11:18s " thou shouldest give reward " seems to me like it should ring a bell in Christians minds as Rev. 22:12 " And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me ". You see at least in my church background of 23 years in the AOGs it is taught that when we are Raptured and meet Jesus in the air he right away gives us our rewards and look here the Rewards are given after 3 billion die in a 42 month period of time.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power
was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and
with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (KJV)
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which
were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the
third part of men. (KJV)
^i^ If we say the world is at 6 billion, which it is or just about and will be by 2000, we subtract 1/4 then 1/3 and we get 3,001,500,000 left over. In other words God is saying 1/2 half of the world people will die in a 1260 day period. 7 Seals and a full 6 trumpets.
^i^ So the Rewards comes after this horrible time of 42 months. But the Church still is here and the 7th trumpet is blown some 75 days later.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and
thirty days. (KJV)
^i^ These 75 days can then be easily calculated and no one is suppose to know the exact time so how can the Word be wrong by stating there is an exact 75 more days as Dan. says?
Matt 24:22 And except those days should be
shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days
shall be shortened. (KJV)
^i^ So there is a set number of days which can be altered by God and no one can know the exact time, but all can know the seasons even more closely as the time narrows. So, the 6th trumpet ends with the Rapture because the Rewards are given to the saints.
^i^ What else? Rev 11:19
"And the
^i^ Anything more? Rev
10:7 " the mystery of God should be finished "
WOW, all this at the 7th trumpet? Rewards,
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great
and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last
plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (KJV)
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven
angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
(KJV)
^i^ Now we are getting into really bad times in
which most Christians were meant to miss, but the TRIB is still to get
Christians ready for eternity with Christ. These last Christian were late in
coming to grips with God's message and so have a different future. They will be
healed so that their bodied can live a 1000 years, but
even in these groups will be born those that reject Jesus even with him living
on Earth in
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