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TV viewer: Having the luxury of legal marriage I will choose to abide its customs, and thus will be certain to not fall into sin. My reply: You have the luxury, as it were, of legal marriage, gays don't and can not abide by its customs. To be certain you don't fall into sin can indeed put yourself right dab in the middle of sinning.
My Response to TV viewer Tommy
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:20:13 -0800 Tommy writes:
Hi John,
Wow, quite a verbose person I see, a bit more than I bargained for but all the more excellent for me to understand.
^i^ A Pentecostal pastor prophesied over me some 15 years ago saying I would be "verbose" as it were and that the result would be finally it would begin to get through to God's people. I never planned it this way, but I may have but that one e-mail to that person or persons and time is short, it may not seem to help now, but later it just may.
First off, I agree with your perception of legal marriage. I always felt that laws and ceremonies were, although not irrelevant, overstated in the marriage process.
^i^ Hmmm? Generally I don't get to much into my perception, because that is an opinion. I may be right or wrong. I usually present sides of the issues so one can stop being so narrow minded. There are other things to consider that makes some issues not so cut and dry as its preached to be. Actually I have very standard concepts of marriage, but think too many preach heavy weights onto their congregation concerning sexual relationships.
It is this very understanding that compels me to wait until I am married to have a physical relationship with anyone. Having the luxury of legal marriage I will choose to abide its customs, and thus will be certain to not fall into sin.
^i^ You have the luxury, as it were, of legal marriage, gays don't and can not abide by its customs. To be certain you don't fall into sin can indeed put yourself right dab in the middle of sinning. Jesus would rather you take the risk of being who you are or learning who you are, mistakes included, than wait for the truth to appear before you. You learn in mistakes. That doesn't mean go purposely make mistakes. Mistakes are not intended and so a base for learning. The Law is a school master and without the Law we don't know we sin. Jesus came and the Law was written on our hearts and so the school master is in us. Breaking the Law incurs a result that teaches you not to break it. It could take many times before you get the message of the Law. Jesus is patient and knows the Law is written in your heart and so lets the Law work and so Jesus maintain his personal relationship with you forgiving all your sins. The Church reminds you of your sins and often without mercy. I would never say have a hey day, but just be a Christian. You are the one with the personal relationship with Jesus and it is between you and him. You not him will allow yourself to act or not act on anything. As much as you love Jesus you will do what you will do. Does not make it Bible or from Jesus. However, your love for Jesus means you give him permission to accomplish in you God's will. This means you are not freely sinning, but offer your life daily to be made like Christ. This requires no absolute dictation from the Church to judge your walk with Christ Jesus. Today you may behave what you think is right and it's very wrong. Tomorrow you may behave what today you think is very wrong. At this time of your life you FEEL compelled to wait, but remember 100s of millions of Christians don't FEEL compelled to wait. Why is Jesus different with them? Do they go to hell because they are not compelled to wait? The facts say that their walk covers a broad area. Part are I a much better growth than you, some are much worse, some are the same. So how do Christians judge each other? On what merits? On what demerits? Gays are in a very special situation (not saying they are special, but in conditions that are different) than straights. Straights can meet their spouse in every imaginable way and place. Church is a great place to meet someone of the same faith. Gays have been banned from any acknowledgement in the Church. They can not expect to meet other gays of their own faith. Today that is changing but ever so slightly. They have to go to mixed denomination gay churches where if like in my case you are Pentecostal you can't easily find one of like faith because that would be disrespectful of non-Pentecostals. Gays aren't allowed to marry legally as I said earlier. Many gays have to meet in ways that seem really against all morals Bible Laws at least in the eyes of the Church. Yet, a almost unknown and certainly not taught factors is applying in these cases. The Church is charged with any ordinary sexual immoral sin that any gay person commits under the conditions that they have still no real way to express the love in an otherwise marriage type relationship. Now the non-normal sexual sins of abuse is of course not applied here. I guess I am being "verbose" again sorry..
I too am based in the Assemblies of God, have been for 22 years. It is interesting to note that you are as well? Do you currently attend an Assemblies church? If so, how do they receive you? I hope they are compassionate, I would hate it to be otherwise.
^i^ Yes, in January it will be 24 years in AOG. The first 10 or so years I never missed a service or a workshop. Five years I had the privilege of my job was taking groups of 20 people to various churches. This was great because I would never have ever gone to have quality time with other denominations worshipping with them (including Sunday school). I also spent at least 7 years in regular attendance at gay churches, mainly MCC. I also went to many TBN rallies in a way my walk with Christ began when TBN began so I have a special interest in its growth and change over the years. They have talked about my ministry a time or two and for a while access to the president of the Federal Way station was open to me. He was a very nice person and accepting of gays. Most AOG pastors I have had the best of rapport and even them sharing their needs of their church with me saying they recognized God is with me. Only since I began my TV program have churches been negative towards me. Several Seattle and vicinity AOGs have done some pretty ungodly acts in response to my program. This makes it difficult for me to worship in a church of my faith because very soon the pastor comes to me in a negative fashion. However, I have been to churches that did not know how to deal with me and they met to decide to let go and let God and treat me like any other Christian. I have also met often in a pastors home Bible study where some 20 to 25 pastors and ministers knew I was gay and accepted me without a hint of rejection or condemnation or any negative behaviors of any kind. They were all Pentecostal and I got plenty from God from their operation in the Holy Spirit. Of course it was all very positive as any such operation is towards people called by the Lord into ministry. Yes, I have found compassion with Pentecostal pastors that knew I am gay, but I have not found the AOGs to show compassion towards me until I have prayed in tongues embracing one pastor and an ex-gay leader in my arms. That pastors was changed instantly from a physically violent attitude disposition into a compassionate disposition ready to help me finish the program I was preparing concerning their ex-gay rally. AOGs can be the most abusive in language and behaviors toward gays. But as one woman told me, that had 2 brothers that were AOG pastor and quite homophobic, she never had a choice, but was force to believe gay was sin, never knowing their was another side of the story. I have gotten lot of positive letters and e-mail from AOG people, but I have gotten hundreds of negative and even hateful e-mail from AOG pastors and minister as I have a large number of e-mail addresses off the internet AOG white pages.
I understand also your words about marriage. Indeed it is more difficult. Though I am not there I can see easily how much more it would require in effort. Nevertheless, do we not both seek it? Someone to share your life with? Someone to share everything with? Whether married in the traditional sense or not, the communion is what we are hoping for correct?
^i^ Most people even those that say they never want a marriage, gay or straight, really want it. But because of hurt and many things hide this. I really wanted my first relationship of 10 years to work, but I found Jesus after a few years and was hooked on him so much and my life changed so much that even though at first it was fine, the toll was more I guess than my lover could take and finally after so much prayer there was little choice left for me but leave. I have a couple of more relationships that lasted over 3 years in an unequally yokes condition that has its own story. Now I am in a 7 year relationship with someone that recently read the Bible twice and just finished a book on issues of an important part of my ministries out reach. He loves me so much and is unbelievable in how he takes care of my life. He opens the gate for me when I get home from work and we walk into the house together holding hands and this after 7 years. We share everything with each other. We have problems and Jesus helps us. He is growing towards Jesus, but it is a battle. He prays a lot but is just testing the waters and not ready to give his life over to Jesus completely yet. I trust Jesus in my everything. Jesus often tells me to hang there and that he will fulfill the desires of my heart. It is one thing to read this in the Bible and get choked up on it, but to here Jesus tell you so directly is almost more than you can take. I love Jesus so much he has been so close to me all these years as well as far as I can remember before I accepted him as my Savior. I so did not believe in him, beyond any shadow of a doubt and yet he was always there even when I argued so strongly he didn't exist. He took me through many stages leading me back to him without any persons involvement except that night when I said the sinners prayer accepting him into my heart.
I look for more from you,
^i^ You'll probably get tired of me it I keep verbosing.
Tommy
^i^ In Christ Jesus
John
My Response to TV viewer Tommy second e-mail
**True it is very possible that you may the on thing that anyone
ever sees of God. Though, I certainly hope that there are
enough of us Christians in the world so that that won't be the
case.
^i^ ^i^ There are many Christians out today with a message to the Church. This is always the case just before a move of God. With the internet it is easy to find people giving a warning to God's people in the fashion that precedes His move.
**Hmmm....What do you mean by that? Heavy weights? Do you mean
to imply that a sexual relationship is not as big a deal as some
pastors or denominations might think? I would have to disagree
with you there, and in fact hold that few people realize just how
big a deal it is.
^i^ ^i^ Too many clergy are heaping weights on the shoulder of babes. For me I can care less what anyone says about the actual sin occurring at the moment. Its the intense condemnation from clergy and lay people that haven't the slightest idea about dealing with the issues of human sexuality. I have seen and read far to much on the pain of people lives based on the guilt poured on them by the Church. Jesus said cast the first stone if you if you are without sin. Children of God have relationships with Jesus for a reason. He is real and can take care of your sins that don't quickly go away. Truth is key and too many lies are taught about sex that the "offenders" are the more confused. I reiterate "to big a deal is put on sex" The Masons are going to really devastate most Christians soon and here we are so busy dealing with weights of guilt? The Holy Spirit job is to convict and His convictions leads to a way out. Guilt is hopelessness. An example. Your worst case sin is not knowing Jesus, because that alone gets you hell period right. You were convicted that you were a sinner, but the way out was Jesus died in your place. Isn't that great? Were freed from the death sentence sin brings. The same thing happens with hard sins. {pastor says it sin, but the facts say something else, like I can't stop, or I read so much concerning this issue that what is preached is since less. Because you read something in the Bible does not mean you read it right or interpreted it right. You are not special when it comes to learning the Bible. Facts say their are too many scholars and independent researchers that have studied it thoroughly and come up with a different interpretation. I believe Mary was a virgin and close to God, but some scholars show she was 14 years old with pregnant by the Holy Spirit. It is a known fact that parent would also send their daughters to care takers in the synagogues to insure they are not molested or raped. Mary was very protected according to some researchers. This means she didn't herself stay a virgin completely of her own accord. She had lots of help as certainly would be needed for her calling which would included means to keep her a virgin. Some say she was older, but if 14 is true then she also had no time to prove out sexual worthiness as a virgin. I believe she was a virgin and loved God this I know because that is what the Bible says. The actual conditions of her life are a matter of record and customer for a child in her class. The point is to base absolutely an interpretation on scripture that many interpretations has been rendered by scholars with the tools to go deep into the records of history and they differ sometimes a lot is telling that the one that bases their belief by choosing the one they thinks fit best for themselves that all the others are wrong period. This is not right. Concerning sexual faithfulness is an example so we can understand better in keeping ourselves from other gods and remain faithful to God. If we understand the trouble in the flesh with these things then we should understand the trouble in our relationship to God. I am not making less of sexual sins, but the significance is its meaning towards our faithful relationship with God.
**Now how do you figure that? The Word says to flee the
appearance of evil. To abhor evil. How can do anything but, at
every point, do everything I can to avoid falling into sin.
^I^ ^I^ This one really a blind statement and I can not apologized for any harshness I may make here. "appearance of evil" is a cop out to declare anything sin that fits the fancy of the beholder. To Jimmy Swaggart it appears evil for gays to hold hand and walk down the street in a predominately gay neighborhood. So should gays avoid walking hand in hand for the sake that many think it sin? The fact it is not sin and its those that feel it appears evil that are doing the sinning. Why don't you abhor the evil of so many in the Church lying about gays. The appearance of evil is when that city councilman was caught in a red light district trying to catch a prostitute on his own. As right as he may be he certainly appeared to be doing evil. My concerns here are not the whole picture relating to straight general life. You have e-mailed me about gay issues and that is the purpose of this writing. To impute the appearance of evil into the sex lives of gays is an entirely different issue. Sin is sin but to whom it is charged can differ. I don't expect you to understand this. Straights can commit sexual sin and the charge is upon themselves, that very same sin the that a gay person does can be charge to the Church's account for punishment at the reserved time. This is due to the amputation the Church did 700 years ago of its gay members. This may not sound right to you, but it doesn't matter this is how it is done. A goodly number of gays simply have not reached the age of accountability in this field and so a different set of spirituals rules are applied until they reach that age. If you yourself attempt to apply the same rules you are following to another's walk you can indeed be sinning. It is your walk and you must walk that walk and remember you were once lost to sin, don't re-visit those days. Good counsel and advice is very helpful, but more often than not the advice and counsel are based on ones own walk or the doctrines of the church he chose to be a part of. Sometimes it is very hard not to state from memory the rules and regulations we have learned. We are called to minister as witnesses, not necessarily teachers. There is a big difference. We can say with certainty what Jesus has done in your lives, but to go into preaching things you only read about and believe and or assume about another's walk is not necessarily your call. If it is then there is going to be the lessons you learned. I tell you something, if you rely just on the Bible or Church concerning sex your failed and never should go very deeply into sexual maters. Let go and let God. Often the best approach is not to offer your understanding as it would do more harm than good. I have seen many that just trusts God and see their loved ones changed with out they adding their wisdom. Believe me I am not making light of sin or using as my base anything other than the Bible. But, because I am gay I had to do more than just accept my pastors teaching and interpretations or for that matter anyone's else's. God took me through the Holy Spirit course on sexuality which no can pass. By failing you pass. Man's standard is to get the grades that will pass you or you don't get the credentials of graduation. God gives the credentials to those that fail his school because going to his school means you will pass the course though you fail. I don't care if you don't have sex until you marry or if you have it many times with different people. You are not going to make some ones else's sin worse because of what you think. God sees you heart and mind and soul. He has written his Laws on your heart. The issue on sinning is very well covered. It just that people love to judge others which is a sin. If you have gone out and had sex before you marry there are many factors. Doesn't matter if the letter say you sin, if so who in the Church could be Saved? In 1850 at the clergy convention they discussed masturbation at point to deal with 1Cor 6:9 up till then it was taught they won't inherit the Kingdom. They all agreed that Heaven would be empty as in all their ministries they have concluded every one does it. They needed to change the teaching on this verse to something everyone at that time could agree that would be acceptable to the populous. They decide since gays were already preached as sin that most would have little problem getting used to the new teaching on this verse. So is it not a sin or not and can you just change at will a verse to mean another whole group of people? They needed some one to judge. People are more complicated than simply making a rule or saying this is an absolute of the Bible. The point is Jesus is making something beautiful of our lives. He is hindered at every turn by well meaning people. Magic Johnson is a children's icon and a hero for the cause of fighting AIDS. How often do you here anything about his sex life of what some 2000 women. Who is out rebuking Christian sports fans that just about worship him? But is a gay has sex he is going to hell without hope. 62% of well interviewed Christians have sex on their first dates. Who is right. Those that condemn this? Why so large a number? Divorce is at 50-60% and this included Christians. Who is right those that condemn them or those that says they or forgiven and can continue having sex with their new spouse? The letter says every time you have sex with your new spouse you commit adultery. There just isn't any place in the word to justify this sex. Most aren't divorced because of having sex before the divorce. Yet, we can hardly condemn them can we? WHY? If Jesus lacks? Is their signs that they are returning to their first spouses? Some other factors are involved than simple condemnation. If you preach your witness and are honest about it , it would have no additional preaching on the person you witness to that in particular they are living in sin and you point it out in detail. That person would see your life and what Jesus has done and this would make them want Jesus too for their lives. Of course there is need to teach and preach concerning sins. But if you just can get a glimpse that Jesus happens to be pretty good at being personal with those that accepts him. The Church did not have to tell the American Indians they were naked and force them to dress. If it was sin or the emerging new customs they would indeed dress. If they accepted Jesus and Jesus never asked them to dress so be it. It was hot down there. The Church has always came to new places and told them it's a sin to be naked and forced them to dress. This wonderful Jesus that sets you free and is so personal and kind and never stands in the way of your free choice. Why do Christians need to force in their customs?
**This puzzles me. In the words of Popeye, "I am what I am and
that is all that I am!" What else is there? I do not grasp what
you say about Jesus wanting me to learn who I am, am I not a
sinner saved by grace? Am I not dead to sin and not to live any
longer therein? Am I not to love the Lord my God with all my
heart, mind, and soul? Am I not to love Christ and to keep His
commandments?
^I^ ^I^ Yes you are those things, how did you learn this. You found a church you agreed with or liked, you read the Bible and listen to the preacher. Before this you were dead, but Jesus knew you very well and with each day worked with you to make you into the person you were meant to be. This has nothing to do with "I yam what I yam" you always will grow. Before Jesus comes you will be very different in what you feel inside about Jesus, because you will know him better and you will know yourself better and you will change yourself because of truth. Everybody is your last 4 is every Christian. You are much more than this. You are an eternal being soon to get that spirit body. You have your lifetime to prepare whether its very short or a full life in years. Some short one will be far better prepared than you ever or I ever will be, but sometimes even the best of us needs many decades to get to through the basics. Maybe if you are country this will make you more special in what make country special to those that love country. I don't care a lot for it except it is an interesting side track one in a blue moon. This kind of a life will touch on many things that one that is into opera. Everyone has an interest and it is not going after other gods. Christians in Church can go after other gods just by being drowned in those activities. I am saying you have something that will take you through eternity in service to the Lord. You are an individual and God made every snow flake different and the same with so many things. You are so special, more than:
"am I not a sinner saved by grace? Am I not dead to sin and not to live any
longer therein? Am I not to love the Lord my God with all my
heart, mind, and soul? Am I not to love Christ and to keep His
commandments?"
^I^ ^I^ The above is the foundation a Christians walk without it you are lost. The commandment are 2 which are explained by God's 10. The first 4 explains how to love God (we don't obey the 4th do we) and the last 6 explains how to love your neighbor.
^i^ You learn in mistakes. That doesn't mean go purposely make
mistakes. Mistakes
are not intended and so a base for learning.
**True, but to walk blindly into a mistake without the effort to
avoid it is foolishness.
^I^ ^I^ That's what I said.
^i^The Law is a school master and without the Law we don't know
we sin. Jesus came and the Law was written on our hearts and so
the school master is in us. Breaking the Law
incurs a result that teaches you not to break it. It could take
many
times before you get the message of the Law.
**Wouldn't it be better to know the Law in your heart so that you
need not break it in the first place? Wouldn't it be better for
you to not ever have broken the Law than to learn it through its
breaking? Truly, the Lord said that it would be better for one
who leads a child into sin to never have been born. It would
have been better for the person to never have known the Law at
all than to know it through the breaking alone.
^I^ ^I^ Who has never broken the Law? Jesus alone. Had we not broken the Law we would not have come to Christ. What is better is a wish not a fact. It may be fun to wish and have pipe dreams, but the world is in hard cold facts. We sin, we makes mistakes and some times even we learn from our mistakes. We start as babies, how can we know the LAW . When we are old very few Christians have memorized the WORD, but we have the Holy Spirit to bring to remembrance these things. Sometimes we pay attention and some times we don't. You are not perfect and sinless now or ever will be while alive in this body and neither is any Christian, but we are forgiven completely as long as we persevere, holdfast, and standfast. This means to continue to believe God. Once we don't believe then we perish. Soon this will become a real condition because so many are going to believed Jesus lied. The Masons set a goal in motion 80 years ago to ever so slightly and subtly change some important beliefs and to misrepresent the coming DAYS. The Masons did this in person appearing as bonified Sunday school teachers and pastors and headquarter leaders of all the denominations. They have been patient already for 5000 years so this 80 years was a piece of cake. God said some things about the coming days and so many in the Church do not believe it will happen as God said it would because now they believe what the Masons has patiently changed or added. We don't think there will be a day of shaking and so when it happens we will think Jesus lied or that this really excellent man is really him. Antichrist will perform convincing miracles and more. It isn't a bunch of wishy washy thinking , but already meeting with 200 world leaders and clergy and the Vatican with a man named Lord Maitreya of the Benjamin Crème fame to discuss how to announce his appearance into world leader and the one world gov't . Just who led the children to grow up and sin sexually? Did the world? Why does the world get the blame. Lev 26 doesn't at all blame the world for the woes it faces. The blame is right in the Church's lap. Just who forced gays into seclusion sexually? If you don't think the Church is to blame and you heap the blame on gays choosing to sin just how did gays choose to sin sexually? Though today there are far more resources and plenty of church settings for gay to behave more inline with traditional marriages, still most gays have no such support and have to live their live hidden away. Many feel that getting involved with just one person would expose them to the risk of being found out and rejected by family, church, work, housing, etc., and this is more than they can bare so they avoid relationships. To outright condemn these that the Church has do vehemently banned from eternal life is much worse a sin than the perceived sin. Whether you grasped this or not this is truly
" Truly, the Lord said that it would be better for one
who leads a child into sin to never have been born"
^I^ ^I^ I just know you don't think that the Church as a whole is in this state. But it is as we will soon see. The Church as a whole will see 3 billion die before the Rapture and it is not because of unbelievers.
^i^Jesus is patient and knows the Law is written in your heart
and so lets the Law work and so Jesus maintain his personal
relationship with you forgiving all your sins. The
Church reminds you of your sins and often without mercy.
**True, Jesus is patient. True, He is merciful, infinitely so in
fact. Yet the Word is specific that we are to avoid sin, and it
is specific what sin is.
^I^ ^I^ What does the Bible say?
Rom 14:22-23
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (KJV)
I Jn 3:18-24
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (KJV)
^I^ ^i^ If your heart condemns you then avoid the sin you think exists, but don't flatly condemn another's heart that condemns him not. The Bible has plenty of room for the new born and the ones already on meat.
^i^ I would never say have a hey day, but just be a Christian. You
are the one with the
personal relationship with Jesus and it is between you and him.
You not
him will allow yourself to act or not act on anything. As much as
you
love Jesus you will do what you will do. Does not make it Bible
or from
Jesus. However, your love for Jesus means you give him permission
to
accomplish in you God's will. This means you are not freely
sinning, but
offer your life daily to be made like Christ.
**This is true. I will do what I will, free will gives me that.
But if I do evil, is it not counted to me as evil? If I do
righteousness is it not counted to me thus? True the evil I do
is forgiven me, but it is still evil and would be better if I had
not done it.
^i^ ^i^ Isn't it typical that there are always two sides. In town meetings there is the pro and cons. Lets look how we are fairing. Like on the issues concerning gays in town meetings the gays side of the issue always without exception expresses unconditional love. Many aren't Christian and many are in such groups. The other side always represents supposedly the Church. What we see come out of this side in anti-gay everything. To see if love existed would be impossible. They may say love the sinner hate the sin, but this expression looks just hate the person too. It is so obvious if you put the issue of sin aside and just look at the behavior of the 2 sides. It flat out no contest love unconditionally comes from the supposed support the sinner side as the Church would have say gay is sin. While the Church side appear to express hopelessness and hate in the supposed name of love. Let us look at our communication as it is turning out. No matter what I say that gives hope and God's unconditional love to the sinner, you always come back with looking to the perceived surface evil. The heart and soul has never been in your forefront of response. Evil and sin has been your theme. If you had not done evil you would have not known Jesus' forgiveness. And as the Bible say God forbid to do evil all the more to receive all the more Grace. Is this how you witness to the lost is to end comments with put sin on a pedestal?
^i^ This requires no absolute dictation from the Church to judge
your walk with Christ Jesus. Today you may behave what you think
is right and it's very wrong. Tomorrow you may
behave what today you think is very wrong.
**What then do I judge my life by? How do I gauge what I do with
what I know? If I do what I think is right, and it is wrong who
will tell me? Christ? People I know? The Word? All of the
above? How then am I to know whether I am right or wrong? Is
there no line with which to measure myself? Am I not to know if
I live rightly or wrongly?
^i^ ^i^ If you as a Christian haven't learned how to walk with Christ leading then what shall I say. If you want be to help you understand this principle ask a question. This game of trying to keep sin as a god is strange enough. I don't know how long you have been saved or what church is your background. Are you a baby in Christ needing milk or mature in the Lord requiring meet. If you were matured you would hear what I am saying, if a babe you would be hungry. I see neither. I must assume and accept that you are trying to mess with who you assume to be living in sin with no real seeking towards truth as you have it already as far as you are concerned. The Church thinks it is right to persecute gays and ban them from the celebration of marriage. Does your heart tell you to persecute gays by saying if they have sex as a married couple does they will go to hell unless they change and be straight going through the necessary purifying rituals? Or does your heart tell you that 600 million are to many to flatly condemn with further investigations on your part? Who will teach me not to kill? You? The Church? The Bible? WHO? This is stupid, you know already your don't kill that it is wrong. The basic are for babes. You are in lots of trouble if you don't know some basics. Jesus says amen the pastor, but go home and study what he said to determine yourself to resend your amen or keep it.
^i^At this time of your life you FEEL compelled to wait, but
remember 100s of millions of Christians don't FEEL compelled to
wait.
**I don't really think what I FEEL matters, the Word says wait,
so I do. Certainly if I knew what the Word says and I chose to
ignore it for my own pleasure, that would be my choice too, but
it would be sin as much a anything else.
^i^ ^i^ Get off your godliness you are a feeling creature and all the Christianity in the world won't take you physical body away. No matter how close you are to God you ultimately go with your feelings. Just because your spirit may or may not agree it can only act as a persuader of your heart. The Law is written on your FLESH you know don't you. What flesh is that your spirit or soul or body? This cop out about feelings having nothing to do with your faith is plain stupid. You feel Jesus inside you. He feels like another person in your body. It is a real feeling. You feel uncomfortable around some people and will avoid them if at all possible. Usually something out of the ordinary will get your feelings to go be with some one you don't like. You love to be with those you like. As you grow in Christ your flesh wages war with your spirit, where does it say your spirit ever wins. Only win death or the rapture does the flesh lose. So you always have your flesh in on every decision you make. Jesus is so good he is with your and works with you and helps you in more ways than you can know. He knows the struggle of your flesh and helps keep at bay the fulfillment of many fleshly desires. I hear people put down their flesh as though it has no more say. The flesh has a say as long as you live. It is the flesh telling you to have as your theme with me to elevate sin onto a pedestal. Because its feels right to put down sin. It is right to uplift the Christian not his uplift his sin. Satan wants us to feel hopeless and dark all the time and lifting sin into a god position just that nicely. Though we sin we have hope and if you emphasis sin then it is a hopeless life we have as sin is your ruler. The is a way out and that the Lord Jesus Christ that greets me in the Morning when I awake with a special greeting. I am not awakened to him pointing out my past sins or upcoming sins. I can't do a thing about unknown sins and known sins I can ask forgiveness and help then go on with my life. The most ridiculous things a Christian can do is write sin lists up to send out. I have a couple of them and they are very many pages long. WHY. In some church meetings a tremendously long prayer is ask to be repeated by everyone so it can cover everything. One such prayed listed over 15 minutes on the list itself. That was a TBN host. WHY? Founder of Full Gospel Businessmen said "save me a sinner" that good enough. Sometimes when you have a big problem you need to really detail it out to Jesus, but then just go on. Trust him he'll help, watch and take the answer when it comes.
^i^Why is Jesus different with them? Do they go to hell because
they are not compelled to wait?
**I do not know who goes to hell and who does not, that is not my
part to know. Is it not sin then to disobey the Word? If I do
not FEEL compelled not to steal, then is it alright for me to
steal, certainly not. If one man does not FEEL compelled not to
murder, is he justified, again no. As these are sin, so are all
other sins as the Word lays them out. Feelings are irrelevant.
^i^ ^i^ This is getting into people telling me when they see "gays for Jesus" they feel compelled to say then why not "murderers for Jesus" it simply is not a comparison. You are just trying to make a clean thing dirty by comparing dirty things to clean things. If you play if games and you can't FEEL murder is wrong you have a problem and that is why the Gov't is on Jesus' shoulders. You kill someone and the police will do their job. We are not comparing "ifs". You so easy make comparisons that help no one. The really bad crimes Jesus has prepared the police involvement to protect others. The not so bad sins as it were that are not illegal should have been dealt with at family level especially as Christians. I don't know if you read the whole Bible but parents are supposed to teach a their children at every moment about life and God and the Bible. Church is a secondary place of less significance. They should emphasize to parent their responsibility. For a "if" game this is God interest and He is quite firm on this. But even the most Christian of homes hardly pray together let alone teach about life's matters on sex. You pass responsibility away so easily don't you? Soon enough each individual will be responsible all the more teaching in the way they should go by parents. Yet, the Church has thrown out responsibility in so many things. Its congregation is its children and the shepherd only tell his flock to go out in the slaughter while he stays home at the safety of his pulpit. The pastors should be giving on the job training by demonstrating witnessing skills and the Bible promises in action. He would have less divorce and family problems to contend with. They sound so good preaching and have such a nice smile if they wait at the door to welcome you or say good-bye. The neighborhood around the church has no idea what takes place inside while they die outside. Only disasters you see on the news makes anyone know what's going on there. There is work to be done we weren't sent to judge but to witness Jesus Christ.
^i^ The facts say that their walk covers a broad area. Part of them have
a much better growth than you, some are much worse, some are the
same as you..
**I do not understand you here. Can you be more clear?
^i^ ^i^ Referring to the stage of faith you are in at present. I believe I was talking about the many resources available and to assume you are automatically right on an issue pays no attention to those that have done plenty of homework. You have to review the work of others in any matter if you intend to speak your mind on an issue based on what you have come to believe.
^i^So how do Christians judge each other? On what merits? On what
demerits?
**Christians should not judge each other, we know this. We
should have compassion on each other recognizing each other's sin
and helping each other through it.
^i^ ^i^ This is true, but in contradiction to this entire response you sent my this time. We can not necessary recognized another's sins especially in controversial topics. The Church as a whole says it recognizes gay as sin. It is not sin. They say "sodomite" means "homosexual" it does not, it means "temple prostitute". There just isn't a simple cut and dry answer to life. We Christians have made it a way to complicated in these last 2000 years. Help should be indeed with compassion, but not finger pointing. If I were to apply what I have been reading to the some of the people I have witnessed to they would have never accepted Christ. I was sent a person that 2 counties banned from their county. They said their authorities diagnosed him hopelessly unhelpable. We accepted at the place I worked at the time. He was assigned to me. He had escaped from everyone else even a fellow worker before I got him. I led him to Christ. He even heave stress never attempted escape while in my care. God will work out their sins in due time, we simply are not called to point out sins as we may believe them to be unless they are truly harmful to themselves or others. Spiritually God is the expert and His timeline is not our timeline to take sinning away of the type that won't actually cause eternal loss. Because you hate or someone's feels hurt or harmed in some kind of way just isn't going to change God's mind in how He will deal with each person. Let God and you follow his lead. You can only do what you can at any given point of your life. You are working towards perfection, but won't ever achieve while in your body. This has a thing to do with in outer darkness sins of dangerous evil. Sin is sin, but some sins aren't unto death. You don't try to do them, but in ministering to others you are not called to be a policeman, or a prosecutor, or a judge, or a jury, or a jailer. This is what Jesus came to set us e set free from.
^i^ Many gays have to meet in ways that seem really against all
morals Bible Laws at least in the
eyes of the Church. Yet, a almost unknown and certainly not
taught
factors is applying in these cases.
**What is that factor?
^i^ ^i^ Below
^i^The Church is charged with any ordinary sexual immoral sin
that any gay person commits under the conditions that they have
still no real way to express the love in an
otherwise marriage type relationship.
**This is very unclear can you clarify for me?
^i^ ^i^ It will be unclear to you as long as you don't understand Church history concerning gays. Ezekiel 34 is an excellent summary of Church behavior towards gays and what God is going to do about it. If you haven't a clue about gay and the Church then how can you understand it? It took from Jan. 74' to June 85' to get the revelation on this even though HE thrown this chapter at me the whole time. Then suddenly after a confrontation with a wonderful pastor where I had to tell him I was gay and stand firm on what I learned about this issue, God told me to re-read the chapter. I was stunned at the clarity of its applied meaning. Lots of things are unclear to you and much of the Church. This is very normal during a change to a new ear. We are going to reign with Jesus and it almost here and things have to change very soon. The Church as a whole will support antichrist and many true believers will be on for that ride for a good part of the 42 month period. Yes, it will be unclear and the messengers God is about to send the Church will be trying to get shut-uped and even do everything they know how to help get them killed. Many of course will hear the message and put on their wedding gowns. Putting on our wedding gowns will hurt. Not a Christian a live will be without a painful dressing session. We are to fat and it will hurt even the closest to Christ. Many will perish. How can this be clear? Most think the transition for Christians will be a party or just a touch of sorrows. The Bible says many times what is about to happen and it refer to the Church as being at the brunt of God chastisement. God is not willing to lose anyone with out a fight and He is good at fight for your eternal life. A 2000 years washing is about to take place. We need to be clean before the rapture. Death will clean you if you still believe the rest that are alive death would be a sweet way to Heaven compared what we'll see and feel. 3 billion will die. Satan will not appear evil but as an angel of God at first. How will you avoid the appearance of evil? By flocking to the appearance of good? In those day the appearance of evil will be the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses. The most wanted criminals of the past 2000 years. Will you recognized the good in these messengers? Will you recognize the evil in antichrist. Masons have been working on this planned one world gov't for 5000 years are you smart enough to see through the in place lies? You probably right now no nothing about Masons other than neighborhood clubs doing good. George Washington a 1st degree Mason who went to one meeting in his whole life after he retired nearly single handed stopped their existence in the US. Lincoln stopped their intention to form a world alliance after that war. WW1 & 2 were attempts to form the alliance. Masons never gave up and now have an unstoppable formation. They can today install it and no one on Earth could stop it. If everyone knew today their hidden agenda and took to arms it is already to late. They can stop any attempt to stop them. Jesus will not stop them either because its time. They have been ruthless in the past 5000 years. And are extremely ruthless today. They own all media and banks every where. There is no such thing as an enemy Russia it a show, a real show involving a great deal of death. They are partners with the USA and have been since the czarist:
Nicholas II, the Last Russian Czar
Nicholas II was an autocrat, but a weak ruler. He was forced to abdicate in 1917. Nicholas is shown second from the left. Next to him are his four daughters: Tatiana, Olga, Marie, and Anastasia. At right is his hemophiliac son, Alexis. The family, including Nicholas's wife, Alexandra (not pictured), was later murdered by Bolsheviks.
"Nicholas II, the Last Russian Czar," Microsoft® Encarta® 96 Encyclopedia. © 1993-1995 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved
^i^ ^i^ There is a true story behind him. He refused to go along with the attempted world alliance and he and his whole family were killed. What you learned in school just is not true. Today in the USA the power name for Masons :
sources:
1. The United States Government Manual 1991/92, Office of the Federal Register - National Archives and Records
Administration.
2. Standard and Poor's Register of Corporations, Directors and
Executives 1991
3. Annual Report 1991/92, The Council on Foreign Relations, Pratt
House, New York City
"The Council on Foreign Relations is the American Branch of a society which originated in England ... (and) ... believes national
boundaries should be obliterated and one-world rule established" "The Trilateral Commission is international ... (and) ... is
intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the
political government of the United States"
WITH NO APOLOGIES, Senator Barry Goldwater
Member of the Council on Foreign Relations --------- C
Member of the Trilateral Commission --------- T
Member of the elite Bilderbergs --------- B
AT THE TOP
David Rockefeller Chairman Emeritus
Peter G. Peterson Chairman of the COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
58 E. 68th St. New York, NY 10021
Phone (212) 734-0400
FAX (212) 861-1789
Paul Volker
North American CHAIRMAN OF THE TRILATERAL COMMISSION
345 E. 46 St. New York, NY 10017
Phone (212) 661-1180
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
William Clinton CTB
^i^ ^i^ The list is quite long and shows many people you would recognize who are influencing with out you even having the slightest concern. I also have a list of names of from a Mason site with surprisingly familiar names too. How will you recognize evil appearance. Will Jesus tell you? Will the Holy Spirit move you? There is the way God tells us to tell the difference:
Judg 7:6 Three hundred men lapped with their hands to their mouths. All the rest got down on their knees to drink. (NIV)
^i^ ^i^ Most Christian are drinking the water like a dog, lapping it with their tongue on all fours. It is those that brings the water to their mouths with their hands while watching for the enemy. All the scared were sent home 22,000, 10,000 remained, but only 300 watched what was going on around them. Antichrist's kingdom is not a magic kingdom it is real and it intent is to destroy God's people. It's a must see. You don't have a choice to not go. The support of water won't be there then. You have to have sunk your roots deep into Jesus to have water. Most have shallow roots today and even if you had deep roots you can't feel the difference. Not until the water is shut off and the water will be shut off for the first time in 2000 years. Soon.
^i^Now the non-normal sexual sins of abuse is of course not
applied here. I guess I am being "verbose" again sorry.
**Quite alright....So what is the 'moral difference' between
'normal' sexual sin and 'non-normal'. Is not all sin, sin?
^i^ ^i^ The moral difference is simple. But you seem to insist in a hopeless doctrine. Sin is sin, but you just don't care to get it. Are you one of these that say "if it in God's would that's good enough for me"? Are you so Heavenly bound that you're no Earthly good?
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (KJV)
^i^ ^i^ Start giving life not death Tommy.
^i^ You'll probably get tired of me it I keep verbosing.
**Not at all,
^i^ ^i^ And I am not at all tired of you either, but if you still care to write I will be changing my format.
Tommy
The Stables Ministries Home of Gays For Jesus TV Programs
Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com