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Another point I would like your opinion on is do you believe we are born in sin and so are sinners at birth and have sinful desires and nothing good in us?
Salvation and sin
Received: (from bdavila)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:21:25 EDT
Subject: Re: romans? And End Times
Thanks for your response to my question on Romans. I have a few points to bring up in response. First In Genesis God created man and woman and man was to leave his father and mother and be united with his wife to become one flesh. It does not say anything about man and man or woman and woman joining together as part of Gods plan.
Second you stated that something needed to be verified in the bible 3 times. Well, Lev 18:22, Romans 1:27, 1 Cor. 6:9 all speak against homosexuality.
^i^ Note: I added Gen 19 to comment on to round off bdavila questions.
^i^ I will not go into Lev 18:22, Romans 1:27, 1 Cor 6:9, Gen 19, and The Garden (ones in bold I've already commented, see home page) in this writing at this time, below the are the rest of bdavila questions which I now will respond.
Another point I would like your opinion on is do you believe we are born in sin and so are sinners at birth and have sinful desires and nothing good in us?
^i^ Generally speaking my background is Assemblies of God so you can get some sort of idea what I believe concerning Salvation. I attended every service including Sunday school and guest speakers and their workshops for over 11 years including 5 years where I was paid to take people to the various Christian denominations Catholic included. 23 year watching TBN. I have read the Bible many times. The first several years you might say I lived in Christian book stores reading books. I have read lots of books on these questions I am responding to now. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit over 23 years ago. I am very close to Jesus and he never lets feeling his presence leave me. Here is a few verses to answer your question. Only one actually talks about being born to sin as it were. There are many hundreds of usage of this word which I glanced thru to give you some answer.
ll are sinners
IKing 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; (KJV)
Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (KJV)
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (KJV)
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (KJV)
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)
Ps 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? (KJV)
Ps 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. (KJV)
Prov 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? (KJV)
Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (KJV)
I Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (KJV)
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (KJV)
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (KJV)
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (KJV)
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (KJV)
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (KJV)
I Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (KJV)
I Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (KJV)
^i^ To sum up what I believe at this point in my life is that in a very short order after we are born we begin sinning. This is due to Adam & Eve sin of eating a fruit that which God said not to. I also think that there is an age of accountability where one is held responsible for their sins. I have heard enough to believe there is more to the age before accountability in God's purpose than most will know of those that die as very young children which accounts for the frequent deaths and mass killing of them in history to this day which so often seems so unfair. I believe we can't ever pay the price of sin and we recognize we are sinners when the Holy Spirit convicts us. I think guilt and conviction are separate and that very often the Church heaps guilt on people and say it's the Holy Spirit conviction. Guilt gives no way out while Holy Spirit conviction gives a way out. Though you know what a wretched sinner you are, you also see the wondrous way out of an otherwise hopeless future. Even the best person with an outstanding life of doing good with out breaking manmade laws is still a sinner.
Do you believe that to be saved we must accept and believe that Jesus died for our sins and is our savior and only through him are we spiritually reborn and not bound by sin.
^i^ I accepted Jesus Jan. 27,1974 at 9:30 PM at a prophecy rally in southern Calif. I was 27 years old and an atheist believing beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no God or god of any kind. At 5 years old I turned from God, God never left me I can remember many things during those times I did not believe in Him which He did in my life. Junior high He began restoring me by leading me to understand there is something more than what we see and to understand people. After 4 years in the Air Force I was directed to discover that there is a spirit world. I saw that things did happen though the reasons I never accepted as the true workings. People like Christians were no different to me than witches or masters or any other supposed answer to the spirit realm. All could use this realm as they wish, but most seem to follow well established courses. I subscribed to materiel that taught how to use this available "spirit world" (I didn't call it spirit world at the time). This materiel after one year began to emphasis Masters on the other side that can direct you. My response was that if there was another side it would be GOD & satan period. Here I an atheist telling myself that if such anything existed other than the physical it would be God and satan and all that stands for. During the 4 years before I accepted Christ the Holy Spirit presented Christ to me not by name as I would reject that. The Holy Spirit behave as the Bible says not talking of Himself but of Jesus without using his name. He never left me. Finally, many things from him and around me made it important for me to make a very clear statement. I turned my love for the truth as that was my based "if it was the truth then how can I reject truth" towards GOD. I told Him that beyond a shadow of a doubt I did not believe in Him, but even so if you are real I will accept you. This was strange for me because this would change me and I really believed there was no GOD or gods. I heard this guy on the radio explaining how Jesus was talking to him. His description fit my experience for the past few years. This was the final straw to ask God to show me He is real. One month later I was at this rally of a person who was a regular on TBN. I heard the Salvation story in his last 5 minutes. I have never heard that before. He asked if anyone wanted prayer. I though sure by this time I figure even though Christian believe in something I didn't they combined prayer(thought will) would possibly cause something good to happen in my life. Instead before prayer that Salvation story was told and I was already standing up front with 100 others and I was so choked up about Jesus paying the price for sin and all his love for me I really believed and meant that prayer we were asked to pray accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. My case was different I think in that two major things I had to put on that alter. One was that I knew the Church condemned gays as sin and my lover was with me with a transvestite friend that invited us to this rally and who had recently accepted Jesus. I really meant Jesus to take my sins away and forgive me and I wanted to sin no more and so I placed my lover on the alter that if gay were sin then for God to take him away by showing me the truth I so deeply held highest above everything else. The other thing was this relationship I had with this (as it were spirit) that never in my life have I heard such things were of God if this was not God then I rebuke it out of my life no matter how it stood by me so closely before. There were so many tears of joy from the other hundred and myself as we were led off into a back room to talk with counselors about our born again experience we just had. They gave us literature, some how there were enough people that every one had a counselor. I couldn't really pay much attention to mine I just know he was saying what wonderful thing Jesus was doing in his life. I just saw the glorious cloud filling that whole room which had such love in it.(the cloud). They gave me the book of John which I read quickly and was in tears most of it and was so hungry for more that I ask God in Jesus name to get me a Bible. I said I have $4.57 and only knew K-Mart had a book section. I went there and found one for $4.58. I couldn't put it down and read late into the night every night till I read it all. God led me to Christian book stores where I read a lot sitting in the isles since I had little money I could not buy them. TBN at the time had many wonderful books as well as many program hosts. They offered many free. Besides all I got from church. I learned Jesus was not asking the gay person to change and be straight. I also learned that Jesus was with me those years before I accepted him and much of what he told me I found word for word in the Bible. Of course this is just a tip of the ice berg concerning the details which I could talk forever on coming to where I am today in Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior. He is my everything I love him so much and I commit my life to him daily. He walks with and he talks with me. Through the worst times and the best times, in my relationship with others and my lover. I have rec'd many prophecies from a wide range of people and there positions in the Church. Some famous and some in small tent meetings. From Indian reservations, home Bible prayer meeting pastors go to. He has been with me through the years of doing my TV program and now the internet. He was with me when someone with the power and authority to throw me in prison here in the USA if I preached Jesus as the Christ. Yes I believe you must accept Jesus to be born again, but I don't think the Church knows what it is doing to newborns or the message it gives cultures that's past has little Jesus in it by essentially condemning their ancestors to hell.
Price of sin
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (KJV)
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (KJV)
Isa 3:11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him. (KJV)
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (KJV)
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (KJV)
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)
1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (KJV)
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (KJV)
Gal 6:7-8
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (KJV)
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (KJV)
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (KJV)
SAVED
Ps 80:3 Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved. (KJV)
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (KJV)
Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. (KJV)
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (KJV)
Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. (KJV)
Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? (KJV)
Jer 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise. (KJV)
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (KJV)
Luke 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? (KJV)
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (KJV)
John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. (KJV)
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (KJV)
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (KJV)
Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. (KJV)
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (KJV)
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (KJV)
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (KJV)
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)
1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (KJV)
1 Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (KJV)
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (KJV)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (KJV)
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (KJV)
When we are saved we are remade and filled with the holy spirit and each day we are to pick up our cross and walk. Giving ourselves totally to God and are to flee from sin?
^i^ When we are Saved we are indeed born again, but to state we are to pick up our cross has little meaning in itself. Too many Christians thinks that means condemning others. We indeed receive the Holy Spirit, but are not baptized with HIM. Of course many do receive that baptism at accepting Jesus. The Baptism "filled with the Holy Sprit" is different. Much of the Church even rejects this baptism but that does not make them not have the Holy Spirit in His first operations, it does however limits the Holy Spirit to provide that extra link to Jesus that turn you on fire and provides operations in the Spiritual gifts and much more. The best part is you feel Jesus inside you. I have spent time with Christians that don't believe in that baptism and it is quite a deference, even so they have the Holy Spirit that helps them live for Christ without really having a grasp why. The neat thing is going to these church and seeing God and His message come alive in an otherwise dead church with no one else seeming to sense the presence of the Lord. I can talk about many things in my walk with Jesus that the Holy Spirit manifested in my sight.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (KJV)
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. (KJV)
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (KJV)
Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (KJV)
Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. (KJV)
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (KJV)
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. (KJV)
1 Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (KJV)
1 Cor 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: (KJV)
1 Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. (KJV)
1 Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (KJV)
^i^ As for taking up the Cross let me talk to you about this subject.
endureth (KJV)
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (KJV)
Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (KJV)
Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (KJV)
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (KJV)
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. (KJV)
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (KJV)
hold fast (KJV)
1Thes 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (KJV)
2 Tim 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. (KJV)
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (KJV)
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. (KJV)
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) (KJV)
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. (KJV)
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. (KJV)
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. (KJV)
stand fast (KJV)
1 Cor 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. (KJV)
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (KJV)
Phil 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; (KJV)
Phil 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. (KJV)
1Thes 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord. (KJV)
II Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (KJV)
^i^ Why are we asked to hang in there if it is not possible to lose our Salvation? All the above verses referring to getting the day that the Lord will take us to Heaven to marry him infer that we can loose our Salvation by us making a decision to turn from him and that events will come that will make this condition very likely. For all the taking up of our cross, important as it is it, will be utterly useless when the time comes that will make all that walk seem in vain. Giving yourself totally to God is very important too, but is as incomplete as picking up our cross. Salvation is a process and part of that process is to make it to the 7th trumpet when the Rapture takes place. Jesus did not speak the parables in vain or were they meant for the Sadducees, Scribes, & Pharisees. They were predominantly meant for the Last Day's Church.
Luke 14:17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, `Come, for everything is now ready.' (NIV)
Matt 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: (KJV)
^i^ Who do you think the invited are? What does it mean when pastors give an invitational? Who is the above verse talking about?
Matt 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; (KJV)
Matt 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. (KJV)
^i^ The shallow roots have been water for 2000 years. The Church has not experienced this parable because it has always rained on their shallow roots. Soon for the first time in 2000 years the rain will stop. Shallow roots also means lots of them because there are lots of Christians and so newborns get entangled and choked by these shallow roots covering the surface. Had they sunk their roots deep into Jesus the newborns would have room to do likewise. The Church has not been at the time when its time to go to Heaven, so as in above in Matt 22:11 the today's Church just does not have their wedding garments ready nor have they sunk their roots into Jesus. Jesus will have to do it himself. (which was is the point anyway, all the Glory will be God's). Jesus will send messengers (144,000 & 2 witnesses) to get them ready. Picking up the cross does not mean condemn everyone's else's sins.
Matt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (KJV)
Matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (KJV)
Matt 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. (KJV)
Mark 12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. (KJV)
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (KJV)
^i^ When servants of God are sent to the Church today they often find it is useless to explain to them the message of God and so they must speak in parables to them which later will be brought to their recall. The taking up of one's cross has been deluded esp. this last eighty years. The Masons have specifically targeted Sunday schools to ever so slightly change the message. Now the Church is ripe for a shock and with the shutting off of the rain many will believed Jesus lied to them in the Bible and turn their backs on him. Others will be convinced that antichrist is him for he will be extremely convincing. Today picking up one's cross is just playing Church. TBN and the churches I am acquainted with are not preparing Christians for the days a head. Instead the message says "it's party time in the Church" and we will miss the troubles a head.
^i^ Recap for below question: (When we are saved we are remade and filled with the holy spirit and each day we are to pick up our cross and walk. Giving ourselves totally to God and are to flee from sin?)
If this is true then would it not hold true that if homosexuality is sin then from birth your position is valid that you may be attracted to other men but when we are truly saved through our lord Jesus that we should go and sin no more because our body is now a temple?
In Love
Bill
^i^ This if game has no meaning except to a homophobicly inclined person. I say that because no consideration for the opposite comes up. Fact is if gay was not sin those that condemn gays would be guilty of murder. Not just simple murder because the intent does not just kill the body but the eternal soul as well. Have you considered yourself? If straight were sin, then shouldn't you repent and become gay. For a minute think about it. Can you change? Do you think Jesus would make you gay since straight would in this case be sin? Can you tell your spouse, the one you love, to get out of your life? Would you go to ex-straight ministries or therapists? Your assumption is gay is sin. Your facts lacks foundation. I accept Christ and I was changed. Did you ask about my walk? No. I have a testimony you can't undue. I repented what was in my power and what wasn't I gave to God daily until He gave me strength to repent (change) from my behavior that I couldn't change from. Cigarette, drugs, alcohol, etc. are some things people need more help with that is not questionably undesirable. Life of crime can be very difficult to leave. Abuse is hard to stop. Many things require time and commitment and have universal acceptance to the evilness of the behaviors. These very things can instantly stop by God's deliverance. Facts show this is usually not how it works for many. For me some things took a few months other things took years, still other things seem like I must endure till the end. And some things changed instantly. Paul said he had a thorn in his side:
2 Cor 12:7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. (KJV)
^i^ Paul had a great calling had he be delivered of his problem he believed he'd exalt himself, as it was he was always reminded of the sinfulness of his nature and so humbled.
^i^ Concerning gays "changing" that was so easy for you to say. How long have you spent investigating this thing you think can happen? How many ex-gays do you know or heard about? And how long did you do follow ups on these ex-gays? If you take some time reading my comments on ex-gay ministries you will find Jesus is not changing gays to straight. Some bisexual have had some success living the straight side of their bisexuality, but my research indicates in a world , including Christians, the divorce rate in 50% to 60%. Many divorce more than once and a lot many times. These bisexuals are still bisexual and should they become a divorcee they just may next time go to the gay side of the bisexuality. I have researched ex-gay ministries for decades and the facts show gays aren't changing and when they find out Jesus is not asking them to change they usually become much better Christians. On the other hand straights are changing even more so now than ever before and they have lots of long term follow ups to verify this. What are they changing from? Believing the Church's 700 year old anti-gay doctrine. Christian boast that they love truth. I am amazed that when it comes to gays so many Christians loves lies. It is also clear that you have a conditioned idea that there is a "truly" saved condition that would make sinners really repent if they had this condition. Saved is Saved. You are or you are not. Repenting is a hang up with many Christians. They think they can tell if a person is Saved by if they stopped doing something. You see me gay and so assume I have not repented unless I at least abstain from loving my lover. You never for a minute asked me about my walk. Had you seen my walk you would be amazed and confused because it goes against what you think can be possible. You see a gay person and see only one thing that they are still gay. You haven't seen my walk. How do you explain my walk? Had you seen my walk you would see visible things happening. You'd see Christians attracted to me to seek my counsel because they recognize God in me. You'd see pastors confiding in me over issues that appear in their church as to not be right and everyone else seems to be going after the wrong and that pastor senses he can trust me with his concerns. You never saw the times I was called out in church after church, rally after rally, tent meeting after tent meeting, etc. as God led the ministers to prophesy or give a word from God to me. You never heard the emphasis of my love and Jesus love for each other be confirmed through people filled with the Spirit and publicly who I never saw before telling me this love. To this day none even hinted at something in my life, as big as you assume to be sin, needs to change, let alone any kind of indication there is demons involved. However, at these same meetings other were called out and their sin dealt with and demons cast out. I have had 3 major healings which were dramatically felt and in one case I saw the Holy Spirit pour across the sky from the north till He arrived directly east of me then poured straight down and when reach my head I was instantly healed of severe food poisoning. Where you there when thousands of prayers were answered? Did you hear Jesus' greetings to me each time I call on his name? Had you seen my walk you'd be confused, because this should not happen to one living in sin, right? Can you explain it as God is just trying to reach me and so gives all this love to me?
^i^ It looks like even you could accept gays could be born that way " sin then from birth your position is valid"(your comment from above), so you think being born gay when one accepts Christ they should stop being gay or abstain? This is where the Church has so much trouble they assume too much and never seek the facts (truth). Such Christians assumes "if it is in the Bible then that's good enough for me". This is nonsense, because the Bible is researchable and truth comes out, but this statement holds no research or backing at all. The statement should be "if it is in the Bible it is researchable and the truth will come out it". Since gays really are born gay then God really did create them gay. This was no mistake and had no intent to be designed as vessels for destruction either. I will give you a clue to who gays are:
1 Cor 12:23 and those (parts) of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely (parts) have more abundant comeliness; (ASV)
1 Cor 12:11-27 covers most of the context to how the Body of Christ fits together. At the end of the 12th century the Church amputated a member off the body, God grafted it back on in 1967. The Church thought it uncomely, but this part of the body gave the Church the vitality of LOVE. For 700 years the Church has been operating with a missing member. That is why the Church today is so sick. Had you visited gay churches often you'd see how they have generally overcome denominational barriers with out giving up individuality of the denominations. The Church is beginning to accept gays. Had you did a little research you'd find some denominations having positive outreaches to gays not asking them to change. Many pastors from all denominations are marrying gays behind closed doors as well. Soon Christians that are gay will begin to operate in full power of their position in the Body of Christ. This because of the condition of the Church today will cause great reconciliation and healing. It will restore many back to faith. All those verses concerning enduring to the END will be a vital mission of gay Christians towards the rest of the Church whom persecuted them. These that has condemned gays by saying the Bible says gay is sin will be amazed that it is these very people that with open arms of love reaches out to them restoring them to faith explaining Jesus never left them come back to him. There is a great deception coming to the Church that many will believe and fall away, but many will again be restored by this army of gay Christians that can give unconditional love to the ones that have persecuted them for such a long time.
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